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EOWG Meeting, 5 October 2001


Outreach Updates

CL I am only here for a short time

WL is Wells a W3C member?

DS they have seat.

JB they are a WAI sponsor, not a member of W3C

KA I presented a paper on CSUN, how a project works better when there is no bureaucracy involved. This came from the grass roots, a good example of great government.

JB a conference in LA every year for twenty years CSUN the center for disabilities. The conference is every March. Two weeks extension on the paper deadline.

KA I checked the web site to see if there was an extension. Are we going to have face to face meetings this year?

JB We'll do a WAI interest group meeting on Saturday. We can have an education outreach meeting on Sunday. Usually get us a good turnout. Who would be interested in the meeting,

KA CL Bill HB Henk (maybe) all agree to coming to the meeting.

JB who joined?

LC Cohen just joined. I want to attend the CSUN conference.

JB I am wondering why you can't come.

HS our board was not happy that we are away for so much time. I don't know which member will be there.

JB that is already a bunch of yeses for going to the meeting. I think I will go ahead and make arrangements.

HB we had upwards of two dozen people there.

JB we have good attendance. The 18th through the 23rd. LC what was your subject.

LC web accessibility and assistive technology.

JB more updates? None

HS, statistics we are busy at the moment two day for web building companies, and web developers who have a mission are have courses for them about web access. A web site form to sign to promise to make their sites more accessible, and we have 55 people sign the agreement, we hope to have 100 next year. A lot of people are signing according to priority one guidelines.

JB you are training them?

HS yes training and reporting what is wrong and missing, and the hope they will repair. Web site builders should show how to do that.

JB are you using the evaluation document we have HS?

HS more or less. Even at the pace we are doing now, in the main when we telling the same story how disabled people use the web, no big difference from the evaluation document? How to evaluate.

JB Actually it is about evaluation, I'll ask later in the meeting. Any more outreach updates?

Getting Started Page


JB The agenda for today, the getting started page is technically done now. I have tried to catch up with the changes. We have several meeting where we have discussed changes. All the changes have been put into place. The first translations has been done thanks to Helle, if we look at the first page, the markup is not in place yet for the document. SD and Jean Marie are working on the French translation. There is also a style change where I changed the blue background which I thought came from a previous document. I wonder if HS thinks this would be good to translate into Dutch.

WL did you get a note from one of Kits students.

HB basically ADD students where links are in the middle and are confusing.

JB I saw the original comment and saw HB's reply.

HB when you put the links on the end like footnotes. Uncluttered and for reference.

JB is the gist of this that you didn't agree?

HB certainly merit to the comment,

JB is not about getting started page.

HB in general about a lot of links embedded in paragraphs, and phrases.

JB why don't we flag this comment for a later time when we are in this area.

HB this is a good example of where Ken's recommendation would work.

JB I will try to grab that comment and put it into the change log.

HB put a link for the student to look at.

JB would you do that HB? I'll open up the change log. Would people look at the translation on the page.

CL I like the indication at the top where it says it is available in such and such. I still think this still doesn't meet my comments from last week. I think this might still be confusing without a title attribute. Taking out of context you have the same comment. Should read translation where context is appropriate.

JB use the title on link text to give more information so that you have more information. Anybody like that?

WL Yes

CL this makes the page more accessible.

JB Just a moment, with regard to the comment to how people with disabilities, I will try to be more regular about comments on the change log. Any more comments about the translation? People happy?

HB you should be proud of that being out there as featured page.

JB we should all be proud. Title attribute for links in change log. Any comments on the style on the resource links. Where it is bolded?

CL, I like it.

JB go ahead.

HB I like the emphasis of italics rather than bold.

JB who was that who made that comment HB who?

WL I think it is a good idea to leave as is.

CL make it flash (ha ha) and put a title on it.

JB Helle is not feeling well this morning. She put a comment on the list.

CL I like the way that the technical questions are pushed on the other page, and want to have a link there to that page.

HB remove the broken search link?

JB I did on this page and some other pages. They have a substantial problem for the search engine. This affects everyone.

CL finally one of the links on the web accessibility curriculum when I go to that page they aren't dated. When someone sees old examples and we can't modify the curriculum we would modify to a date of last modified.

JB it was easy to do that. I would decline that offer (ha ha) I see what you are saying.

CL I don't want to open Pandora's box. When you go to the page it doesn't say web content 1.0

JB we could warn people that these are old examples.

CL I would prefer a date.

WL don't make that too good.

HB I followed the last link which says March 2000 if you look the page.

JB what are you looking at?

CL that isn't the one, it is the one about web site curriculum by going directly to the examples.

JB I will flag with a "pursue". To notify people that they about to land on old stuff.

CL or we could update the curriculum real quick (giggle)

JB lets talk. Any other agenda about this document? HS is this a document would it be useful to have Dutch.

HS I think so. I would like to do that or some others.

JB I am hopeful to do the inline language document. If you could make up a Dutch with inline language change markup.

HB in your HTML markup the language in the version the tag should have language pointing. Probably something for every W3C pages, everyone should do that.

JB there are a lot of things where a vacuum cleaner and machete (laughing) are needed on our site.

HS I was wondering the guideline is only in the additional resources, only the techniques?

JB somebody want to comment? We originally had it in the resources section and there was some feeling we wanted to keep the page something that wouldn't scare away a novice. The guidelines are very detailed and comprehensive. We do point people to another page. That was what we felt we should do.

WL I think the QA page has a link to Eisenberg to how to read a WAI guideline, that a reading a guideline is not like reading, not for developers, it is for not for web designers, doesn't specifically say, written better than I say it.

JB does that help HS?

HS just a short comment don't put in the first line the guidelines techniques

CL the techniques are not as general as the guidelines. Giving them the detailed up front is more important than the guidelines which is why we put further down the list.

JB I am not hearing much interest in moving this. Are you ok with this HS?

HS one more remark, you are aware that all links at the end of the line are all alike?

JB fix broken links on the evaluation section. Eight more things to do on this document? Anything else? That is a good point. Those are broken. I will probably advertise on the IG that this update and ad to the membership.

Business Benefits


The next thing on the agenda is business benefits. The review notice is now a new URL and moved up out of the directory hierarchy. I found an extensive amount of things that needed to be corrected, including fixing a number of anchor links that didn't go anywhere, and needed to be rechecked the linear version of the table when I did the checks, none of the counter parts of the cell data and they aren't linked. I did not feel it was a fair equivalent and went into and put a link to every item. For example… now links back to the document. I basically linked all of that info. SD you and Jean Marie worked closely with Andrew. Have you had a chance to look at this this morning. Any one else have comments.

WL I have checked about ten and they seem alright. ?

JB I am talking about the data table.

WL how do I get to that.

HB don't have link…

JB I didn't check the…on 14.3 does send me to the right place.

HB doesn't have a pop up attribute.

JB missing a title attribute. He had worked all that out,

KA others didn't have that. 2.2 doesn't have it.

WL you people are so good

JB lets just get the old change log cranking. Comments on the supposedly done documents of the business benefits document. Ok so I am ask for the folks that eager to find those things, send me a collection. KA and HB you want to do that?

HB what we find yeah

JB there are still missing titles on checkpoint link and KA you ok with that?

KA yes

JB ok thanks, The review notice has gone out. Notice there is an EO editors list. This was set up last year. Rather than all landing straight on the working group list. I invite people to look at the list.

WL this is not a real active list.

JB doesn't have a spam filter. Now that the address is published, spam engines will start collecting. It is incoming. It is a way collecting the comments. To archive.

KA should we subscribe?

JB just look over at it.

WL have to go into the archives.

JB there is a link right to email.

WL I would rather it come into email.

JB my concern that we make sure we are responding to all the comments that coming in there.

WL a separate list not just EO, but an editors list.

JB I think we are saying the same thing restate.

WL to make a list something go through our own personal email list.

KA the chances better to read them. A regular list like our archives.

JB I am thinking for active members in good standing. I could subscribe or make possible self subscribed. To get some consensus of the active group.

CL please go to the list and we'll handle it on the conference call.

JB that is a typical way to handle this. Part of what we look at and go through together. People comfortable with that? Let's try and if doesn't work we'll try something.

WL this is the only group where I am confident that the notice will remind us.

JB there are a number of people in this group that keep me in line. The high standard is a good thing. I don't think there is anything else on the business benefits.

SD I looked at the page at the end of the page, at the end of tables, when you don't know it is there, put the link before.

KA I agree with what SD is saying.

JB I think there is another link which is hidden, SD you should be able to find.

Sylive, the skip to, but if you don't know in the linearized version.

JB to replace the link to and in the linearized version. Skip table to linearized

Sylive, you may want to skip the table.

JB add link to linearized after …no reason we should do with one step instead of two. Anything else?

KA the listing of specific countries logs.

JB the European has just sent me a whole kind of unpdate list of links. I will work on this afternoon.

CL I am leaving.

Check in on other drafts

JB going back to the agenda, we have had two possible drafts of stuff for todays discussion. We have deferements all of that. Helle, has a draft for a web design business. She met with someone from a web design business and is hoping to get a draft next week. Natasha has not had time to work on her draft, and also to have this out next week. I have hoped to have a cleaned up version of the page, made progress on the evaluation page. There are a few things that I wanted people to look at. One or two I could understand what we meant. Technically ready for review this afternoon. People look at the evaluation link. Two ways to get there the easiest way go to EO home page, /wai/eo go to the fourth link business link and then appendixes and web sites and disabilities. I have a few questions.

WL my brain is fried. I will get on the getting started page.

Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility

JB go down to Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility and click on any of the three links. Now I just gotta get to the vis log section. I went back to the change log and any undone stuff, from the 3, 10th, and 17th of August. One thing I wanted to clarify HTML evaluation service, to clarify what to do with HTML.

WL which paragraph. The header is conformance information. Validate markup…Looks good to me.

JB There was no..HB was that one of your comments.

HB I don't remember, there is now a paper on the accessibility of HTML. I don't remember the title.

WL that won't fit here.

JB lets pass on this. Another request for a change which I felt was redundant. Any one want to argue?

WL what are you talking about?

JB there was request to add validation to the summary section. The point was that was redundant.

WL the one problem is you have title on that, still has to be done, change your site, have to validate to understand the changes.

JB …Ahhh all new types of pages that validation, does not include any types of pages, I will clarify that on the on-going monitoring section. End changed pages, after on-going monitoring. Got it. Ok so then there are few anchor cleanups on this, but this is ready to go out for review. I am concerned that this draft is overwhelming. Make sure that nothing redundant here. This document may be intimidating. In fact people who look at this from expericne it looks like a lot. HS?

HS it would be nice in a shorter one with links with to sections more details. Start with an overview, and a short section of what to do. Examples all in the line of the document but special things, with a short document with links to more details would be very nice.

WL this comes up so much and someone says oh you can do this… and what he just described review validate. Just a small set of headers, which could expand out, could do that, could be done with style sheets but is a lot of work, it is easy to say overwhelming but no body does it for all the work.

JB I am looking at the document and thinking about how we could do it. For example HS one way is to hide or link the sub bullets. We would leave the 1-5 and link off page to the sub bullets. And bury them on a page that says… And similarly for the next conformance eval. Includes the sub bullets with three pages but the top page much more readable and do a prelemninary review print out the top page, and theoretically.

WL the commonest way is to have a plus sign which you hit to expand.

HS I don't follow.

WL frequently you have help text you have a list with a plus sign where you can expand.

JB what is the markup that we could do that with. We could have some reaction? I am a little bit worried that this will turn people away KA , and SD

KA I don't have a problem with this.

SD no comment yet.

LC I see the problem but I still trying to figure out

HB one more level direction to the detail. There are fifteen items on the list. I think someone doing a prelimnary review, realize that you have a problem.

JB so here is a proposal then. This would be two things. One to go ahead and send the review, and ask for opinions. To comment on that aspect. Not to try to do right now. Second to just look at one section at what is here under the preliminary review and see if there is something to bump down. To thin out. People willing to look at that? Are they all going to give different information.

LC that looks dense and wonder if formatting matters.

JB we'll ask for comments. Are any of these redundant.

WL maybe do this upfront.

JB another concern, we have front loaded so many things that intro is heavy.

WL take it out you have so much…

JB people for that. Go out this afternoon or Saturday. Ready to go with a translating for this version. With a request for review request for translation will come along.

WL when you make a suggestion that you take care to have the suggestion. If you shorten it.

JB I am personally worried this is too complex. This isn't a simple little check to point them to.

WL maybe there isn't an answer. Hire a blind guy, 70% out of work.

JB …Ok done? thank you for the feedback.

HB add links resource add wai nav bar to evaluation page.

JB and one other thing to be bad form to send out without being evaluated, I was going to check people to do AA using one of the prescribed evaluation procedures. Just as an experiment. Done today. Ok. Well I'll do a review. If anyone finds anything let me know fast.

HB I didn't find anything with applying WAVE to it.

WAI Home Page

JB The remaining item on the agenda, the WAI home page, first question is the tabbing weird, IE6 fix in the nav bar needed, and second thing is that it would be useful to have more direct links to WAI groups from the home page. And finally what if we were to add rotating hints from the quick tips page. So that is the remaining agenda. Look back to the WAI home page, and not trying to do a full scale look. Everybody knows how to find the WAI home page, right...?

JB we are on the WAI home page with IE 6, what order you find at the top? I am wondering if tabbing order is weird in most browsers on this.

WL ok incidently this page looks a thousand times better, than a year ago. But it sure looks different in IE rather than Opera.

JB we have got some concerns mentioned from the tabbing order. Start at the very top.

WL WAI resources.

JB do that more slowly please. Can everyone look at the tab order until I open the change log?

WL WAI resources, WAI , WAI site nav. W3C search, news,

JB ok that is in IE 6.

HB IE5.5 goes to deliverables.

JB where are you

WL I have opera.

KA I just did IE5 and it was fine.

JB do that one. Has anybody got home page reader. HS can you bring that up.

KA do hickey umm where did that go. I need to look at the links at the bottom of the page. Just using the tab key, skip nav, resrouces about site map, pound news.

JB what happened to WAI links?

KA, let me see what it starts.

WL MYA looks different but the tab order is the same.

JB homepage reader HS,

HS also the same … about WAI,

JB read from the start again.

HS wai resources, wai site map….

JB anybody else have netscape besides KA. WL can you take us through this.

WL loads very slowly.

JB surprising because I tested in netscape.

KA, I read with version 4.76 and it was fine.

WL almost loaded.

KA netscape 6 takes a long time to load.

JB I am just going to..

KA it starts, W3c WAI logo, war resources, search news, gizmo…

JB skip nav and resources and site nav news. I've got 4.04 an old version. I have the same effect as KA where it completely misses, can anybody why this explain to me why Netscape has a tabbing problem. There are two ways to tab this page. It was designed W3C WAI skip nav, a bunch of little links, the alternative tabbing order is Opera skip nav before even the W3C and finally the ones completely broken and this is netscape bug, not an IE bug.

WL when I hit the tab nothing happens.

JB you don't get a visible indication from Netscape, but I thought we ought to revise the tab order for the pages, and I am now not seeing a problem with that. The netscape problem is significant. I just say that we tried to try many ways to fix the header setup. I don't know of other options. Anybody have some advice? I'll take this to get some feedback to other folks in W3C.

LC I just ran the evaluation in Bobby. Send this report to you?

JB actually I want to see if I can put this into the change log. Check the absolute size, and links. I think that is coming out. I think that is related to the matrices. Add a comment in line to explain the usage. On the WAI home page. Lets go to,

WL put that skip ahead of the W3C logo.

JB it would work in most version not so well in opera.

HB anybody else know how to recognize the nav skip.

HB anybody else have trouble recognizing the skip nav?

JB the intent was to have that invisible to sighted users.

HB I have no clue what it is when I dwell there.

WL when you tab there see the little square.

JB HB the point is for the screen reader to find it, not a sighted person.

HS I am using from Germany, set the s12 you see very clearly the order, what you can't see when you use the web formator , this a free tool. A very good tool for evaluation www.webformator.com

JB what about adding some kind of rotating quick tip teaser, almost like the tip of the day, but not quite that. On the WAI home page to add some little box that high lights a design quick tip. Takes you to the quick tips page more directly.

KA whoever wants that needs to do the work.

JB I think the idea is interesting.

WL did Dan send the code.

JB what about taking out rotating?

KA quick tip of every day.

JB we could add a little thumb nail of the quick tip business cards.

WL are you going to put …

JB I am not subscribing to everything has a visual equivalent. A little addition might keep it from the dull and boring catergory though.

WL I thought I was kidding.

JB try adding a thumb nail graphic of the quick tips card. To WAI home page.

WLs I hope this didn't come about because I said the page looks clean?

JB I don't know what is happening to this discussion, no seriousness (ha ha). I don't know what to add to this. Needs a graphic. Participation. I think we nned to change the links somehow. The page needs more direct access to the WAI working groups. Clean up the links.

WL what about interchanging participation with sponsorship.

JB I need to get Wells Fargo in there. That bumps the sponsorship information above WAI. Sponsorship in the about WAI section.

WL about the bullets…

JB that got voted down. Not working well to have not direct link to the groups. The names are pretty long, we could do acronyms.

WL if you want to get technical do pf.

JB other comments.

HS another thought to have H1 participation mention that there are four work groups one can participate in. Add some explanatory text. The header information is too general participationg in work group, and an explanation, and then make it a link to a page that explains. The names are too long to mention in the first place.

JB give me an example.

HS the H2 is now participation now is participation in a work group, and the first line nowadays how to participate in work groups. There are four groups you can participate in and the introduction of the four groups.

JB I think we'll go back to WAI work groups. This is enough comments. Is there enough comments? LC Sylive KA, HB,

HB technical activity could be activity technology guidelines ,and working groups.

JB we are scheduled for next week at the regular time. I will have less time to work on materials. Are there anyone else with a draft for discussion for next week.

HB one more comment on the resource link on that page, you might foreshorten those. They are each going to the general resource page, I continue to suggest the word policy does not ring a bell with some people, and perhaps policy and law.

JB we had a heavy emphasis to have the links as consistent as possible. I think we need to revisit that topic. Concerning policy and law links, we'll take that up later.

Last revised 24 October, 2001 by Judy Brewer

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