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Bug 13296 - The use of the <label> element as a 'caption' not clearly defined.
Summary: The use of the <label> element as a 'caption' not clearly defined.
Status: RESOLVED WORKSFORME
Alias: None
Product: HTML WG
Classification: Unclassified
Component: LC1 HTML5 spec (show other bugs)
Version: unspecified
Hardware: PC All
: P2 normal
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: contributor
QA Contact: HTML WG Bugzilla archive list
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords: a11y, a11ytf
: 13620 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2011-07-19 07:31 UTC by Joshue O Connor
Modified: 2011-08-15 13:37 UTC (History)
9 users (show)

See Also:


Attachments

Description Joshue O Connor 2011-07-19 07:31:24 UTC
In section 4.10.6 The label element, the label is said to represent a 'caption' in a user interface. There is however, no explanation of what 'caption' means in this context or why it may be needed (for example to make the form controls more accessible). Is it the same as a 'caption' for a data table, or is it similar to the figcaption etc? I suggest linking to the section of the spec that describes what a caption is, and what it is for as well as its content model etc. 
 [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element 
 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-eleme
Comment 1 Tab Atkins Jr. 2011-07-19 15:50:35 UTC
Presumably the relevant reference is an English dictionary.
Comment 2 Joshue O Connor 2011-07-19 16:49:11 UTC
(In reply to comment #1)
> Presumably the relevant reference is an English dictionary.

Many thanks for your perspicacity, maybe it would help you to start there.
Comment 3 Tab Atkins Jr. 2011-07-19 17:00:45 UTC
I wasn't being sarcastic.  It's a caption.  That's not a spec term, nor does it have any conformance requirements attached to it.  It's just a word.
Comment 4 Joshue O Connor 2011-07-19 17:21:04 UTC
(In reply to comment #3)
> I wasn't being sarcastic.  It's a caption.  That's not a spec term, nor does it
> have any conformance requirements attached to it.  It's just a word.

Ok, well it seems to me like you are being sarcastic. So that aside, nothing in the spec is just a 'word'. The use of words like  'table', 'form' etc all have specific meaning that is defined somewhere within the spec (usually rather clearly I may add). I am suggesting that this then needs to also happen here regarding the use of a 'caption' within a form - so authors are clear of the purpose of these things and how they behave.
Comment 5 Tab Atkins Jr. 2011-07-19 17:36:46 UTC
Yes, some words have a specific meaning in the spec separate from their English meaning.  Those words are linked to their definition when used.  The word "caption" there in the first paragraph of the <label> element's description is not a link, and thus takes on its normal english definition.  There are many words in this section that are not underlined, and thus take their normal english definitions, even if similar words are sometimes used in a specific spec meaning.
Comment 6 Joshue O Connor 2011-07-19 17:46:03 UTC
(In reply to comment #5)
> Yes, some words have a specific meaning in the spec separate from their English
> meaning.  Those words are linked to their definition when used.  The word
> "caption" there in the first paragraph of the <label> element's description is
> not a link, and thus takes on its normal english definition.  There are many
> words in this section that are not underlined, and thus take their normal
> english definitions, even if similar words are sometimes used in a specific
> spec meaning.

Yes, and this is why I am filling this bug as I think the fact 'caption' is not a link (to a suitable definition/content model etc) is an omission.
Comment 7 Tab Atkins Jr. 2011-07-19 18:20:53 UTC
Once again, there is no content model implications.  There is no conformance criteria.  It's giving a plain-english description of what the element is meant for.  Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word.
Comment 8 Joshue O Connor 2011-07-19 18:27:00 UTC
(In reply to comment #7)
> Once again, there is no content model implications.  There is no conformance
> criteria.

I disagree, but we shall see.

> Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word.

?? So how is an author to know the difference between the 'spec' use of a term, or the Websters/Concise Oxford use of the term? This seems ad hoc, and your persistence that I should just forget this issue and 'look in the dictionary' isn't helping.
Comment 9 Tab Atkins Jr. 2011-07-19 18:35:34 UTC
(In reply to comment #8)
> (In reply to comment #7)
> > Once again, there is no content model implications.  There is no conformance
> > criteria.
> 
> I disagree, but we shall see.

I'm... not sure how you can disagree.  That sentence links the word "represents"; if you follow the link, it's a statement that UAs are expected to render the element so that it conveys the represented meaning.  That's not a conformance criteria, because there's no conformance words: not a single MAY, SHOULD, or MUST in there.

Nor does the statement say or imply anything about the allowed contents of <label>.  That is specified in subsequent sentences, which use conformance words and actually talk about the contents of <label>.

> > Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word.
> 
> ?? So how is an author to know the difference between the 'spec' use of a term,
> or the Websters/Concise Oxford use of the term? This seems ad hoc, and your
> persistence that I should just forget this issue and 'look in the dictionary'
> isn't helping.

If a term is linked, it's a spec term, and you should use the spec's definition (found by following the link) rather than the English dictionary.  If not, it's an english word (or a generically techy word that we can expect readers to understand if they have the appropriate background to understand the spec at all).
Comment 10 Joshue O Connor 2011-07-19 18:43:25 UTC
(In reply to comment #9)

>That sentence links the word
> "represents"; if you follow the link, it's a statement that UAs are expected to
> render the element so that it conveys the represented meaning.  That's not a
> conformance criteria, because there's no conformance words: not a single MAY,
> SHOULD, or MUST in there.

FWIW, I have filed this bug in the event that there _maybe_ an issue (see above). You are saying there is not, so thank you. Your view is clear. However,  I'm not satisfied by your assertion.
Comment 11 Laura Carlson 2011-07-19 19:11:18 UTC
(In reply to comment #8)
> (In reply to comment #7)
> > Once again, there is no content model implications.  There is no conformance
> > criteria.
> 
> I disagree, but we shall see.
> 
> > Look in your dictionary for the definition of the word.
> 
> ?? So how is an author to know the difference between the 'spec' use of a term,
> or the Websters/Concise Oxford use of the term? 

General Definitions include:

1. the part of a legal document that shows where, when, and by what authority it was taken, found, or executed
2a. the heading especially of an article or document : title 
2b : the explanatory comment or designation accompanying a pictorial illustration 
3c : a motion-picture subtitle 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caption

1. A title, short explanation, or description accompanying an illustration or a photograph.
2. A series of words superimposed on the bottom of television or motion picture frames that communicate dialogue to the hearing-impaired or translate foreign dialogue.
3. A title or heading, as of a document or article.
4. Law The heading of a pleading or other document that identifies the parties, court, term, and number of the action.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/caption

1. a title or explanation for a picture or illustration, especially in a magazine.
2. a heading or title, as of a chapter, article, or page.
3. Movies, Television . the title of a scene, the text of a speech, etc., superimposed on the film and projected onto the screen.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/caption
Comment 12 Michael[tm] Smith 2011-08-04 05:04:21 UTC
mass-moved component to LC1
Comment 13 Anne 2011-08-14 13:53:48 UTC
EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: <http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html>.

Status: Rejected
Change Description: no spec change
Rationale: Tab is correct. It is not an omission and uses the dictionary meaning.
Comment 14 Anne 2011-08-15 13:37:01 UTC
*** Bug 13620 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***