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Bug 1295 - [DM] (from XML Core WG) Relation of DM types to Schema types
Summary: [DM] (from XML Core WG) Relation of DM types to Schema types
Status: CLOSED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: XPath / XQuery / XSLT
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Data Model 1.0 (show other bugs)
Version: Last Call drafts
Hardware: Macintosh All
: P2 normal
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: Norman Walsh
QA Contact: Mailing list for public feedback on specs from XSL and XML Query WGs
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Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2005-05-03 14:21 UTC by Richard Tobin for XML Core WG
Modified: 2005-10-06 16:04 UTC (History)
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Description Richard Tobin for XML Core WG 2005-05-03 14:21:58 UTC
2.6.2, xdt:anyAtomicType
xdt:anyAtomicType "is derived from" xs:anySimpleType, but how?
Trivial restriction?  And if xs:string (etc) is derived from
xdt:anyAtomicType, does that mean its {base type definition} is no
longer xs:anySimpleType?

After discussion with Henry Thompson, we considered the theory that
the type system in the Data Model is not the Schema type system, but
an almost isomorphic one that uses the same names.  If this is the
case, it should be made clearer.  (Perhaps it is in the formal
semantics.)
Comment 1 Norman Walsh 2005-06-07 14:51:19 UTC
FYI: Minutes of discussion from May 2005:

> 
> d) 1295  nor  Data Mod  [DM] (from XML Core WG) Relation of DM types to
> Schema types

" 2.6.2, xdt:anyAtomicType
xdt:anyAtomicType "is derived from" xs:anySimpleType, but how?
Trivial restriction?  And if xs:string (etc) is derived from
xdt:anyAtomicType, does that mean its {base type definition} is no
longer xs:anySimpleType? ... we considered the theory that
the type system in the Data Model is not the Schema type system, but
an almost isomorphic one that uses the same names.  If this is the
case, it should be made clearer.  (Perhaps it is in the formal
semantics.)"

MR: Yes, defined in the formal semantics.

MSMQ: This is a plea for more honesty about the relationship between the QT and
Schema type systems.

Proposal: Change from "derived from simple type" to "subtype of simple type".

[discussion of whether this really addresses the question]
JR: 2.5.4 in XQuery discusses this.  Implies that these are as defined in XSD, 

MSMQ: ...but they are not only defined in XSD 1.1

Don: It's derived by restriction by excluding list and union types. 

JR: DM 2.6.3 we use different shapes for those that come from XSD.  

MSMQ: In general, QT's use of restriction and extension is consistent with
XSD's.  Don's analysis is not based on anything explicit in the documents. 
[Extensional vs intensional subtypes ???]

Karun: There exists a base type in formal semantics
Mary: But it's not called {base-type}

MR: 2.4.1 XML Schema and the QT type system.

MSMQ: Proposes that we go back to asking the editor that we put in wording that
xdt:anyAtomicType "is a subtype of" xs:anySimpleType

[do we define "subtype" anywhere?]

Jim: 8.3.2 in FS

MSMQ: Proposal - In section 2.6.2 of Data Model, in the list of predefined
types, under anyAtomicType, delete "is derived from" and replace with "is a
subtype of." 

Karun: "is derived from" is used all over XQuery.

[more arcane discussion]

Jim: Points us back to Michael's proposal.  Support? 
[Various people say yes].
Karun: prefers status quo, but can live with it.
JR: wait, I want to see ...[looking at 3.1.4 in datamodel] ... thinks we need to
say something about "subtype."

Jim: Hearing some resistance ... 
Norm: Move on, leave open.
Comment 2 Norman Walsh 2005-07-19 20:34:52 UTC
The XSL and XML Query WGs propose to resolve this issue by changing the
definition of xdt:anyAtomicType in the following way:

[Definition: xdt:anyAtomicType is an atomic type that includes all
atomic values (and no values that are not atomic).] Its base type is
xs:anySimpleType from which all simple types, including atomic,
list, and union types are derived. All primitive atomic types, such as
xs:integer and xs:string, have xdt:anyAtomicType as their base type.

Please let us know if this satisfies your concerns.
Comment 3 Richard Tobin for XML Core WG 2005-09-21 15:36:48 UTC
(In reply to comment #2)

This still leaves the issue of how XSL/XQuery's version of the schema type system
relates to XML Schema's.  It seems that these are two separate, but almost
identical, type systems.
Comment 4 Norman Walsh 2005-09-27 11:10:37 UTC
This apparent discrepancy will be resolved, we anticipate, by the XML Schema 1.1
draft
(http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2004/06/xmlschema-2/datatypes.html#anyAtomicType-def
[member only]).

In the meantime, we observe that the consequences of any discrepancy are
mitigated by the fact that the data model doesn't provide any mechanism for a
user function to discover the discrepancy.

We don't plan to make any changes. Do you find this satisfactory?
Comment 5 Richard Tobin for XML Core WG 2005-10-03 12:19:59 UTC
(In reply to comment #4)

The XML Core group accepts your decision on this.