Meeting minutes
New Issue Triage
spectranaut_: Scott already made a PR related to core-aam #531
scotto: Interested in getting feedback from people working on WPT
jamesn: Could be worth adding (tests), appear only in editor's draft
scotto: Help identify from spec what we need tests for
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: Recently filed an issue for re-spec to add something similar to html-aam #527. Talked about an earlier editor's meeting, thinking about a live "Can I Use" directly from ARIA spec. E.g., linking directly to file
… Bikeshed-style approach could work
… also talked about labelling tests or groups of tests
scotto: Issue just references links in the table to stuff
jamesn: Consensus is "yes" to doing it; looks editorial in nature
spectranaut_: For aria #2121, if you're interested read the issue. Minor thing
jamesn: aria #2119, have we discussed aria-relevant elsewhere?
giacomo-petri: Problem I've found is that, the spec does not specify whether AT/UAs how to treat changing values
jamesn: My feeling is that, we shouldn't do anything new with live regions until notifications project is shipped (unsure of direction for that)
scotto: I agree; either notifications API could be used for this purpose without extra live regions. I've achieved something similar using aria-describedby
sarah_h: Small suggestion: add something to aria-relevant to core-aam, i.e., live regions shouldn't fire until input
jcraig: Making progress in WPT towards this; live regions aren't on the testing roadmap due to complexity in supporting this in WebDriver. Should treat lightly on adding new features to existing ones
… forward-going changes should have tests
… referring to platform/WPT notifications, not notifications API
Doug: Edge team has integrated aria-notify into Chromium; will be testing this on a Windows system with Windows screen readers. Some Microsoft partners will also be incorporating aria-notify to do end-to-end testing
TheoHale_: I'll be helping Doug with this
Doug: Looking forward to working with Theo to complete work on aria-notify
jamesn: Will suggest adding aria #2119 into live region project, unless there are objections
jamesn: For aria #2118, will look at this for future deepdives
New PR Triage
scotto: Ben had filed an issue recently where <label> element was mapped to wrong type in UIA. Identified multiple inconsistencies in spec
jamesn: Other reviewers welcome, but we'll use platform owner
scotto: html-aam #529 is a companion issue
spectranaut_: I can also help review
jcraig: For accname PR #229, don't have approval to merge just yet. Per Valerie, want to wait for additional tests and checking of engine implementations
spectranaut_: That is the new process to wait on aligning implementations before spec incorporation
melsumner: With the new process, do we have labels? E.g., "Not ready for merge"
spectranaut_: Great idea; haven't used labels in new process. Could use existing labels, e.g., "waiting for implementation"
WPT Open PRs
Rahim: Happy to merge when others can review
jcraig: jugglinmike is working on the subtest count PR
<jcraig> web-platform-tests/
jcraig: Can move WPT PR #43698 to draft PR to let others know that it's not quite ready
Deep Dive planning - AccName role traversal?
jamesn: Issue came up as a concern to ensure browsers were broadly consistent
spectranaut_: We don't have label for WPT tests
jamesn: Need to find time with relevant folks to discuss this; don't want to go through proposal and only talk about issue. Need resolutions...should include Aaron/James Teh/WebKit person
… Is there appetite for this? Also, need representation from WebKit
spectranaut_: Perhaps we should schedule this offline with Aaron/James T. to find a time people can meet? Definitely a deepdive that requires closer look/homework before discussion
Matt_King: Would you consider using a poll to propose dates/times?
spectranaut_: Is there a preferred poll type? E.g., Google Form, W3C poll
jamesn: Please ensure you've studied the issue to help arrive at a consensus (serious folks only apply)
Matt_King: Both Google/W3C polls work equally well from a11y standpoint
jcraig: Some of the most successful versions of these complex issues, a couple people meet before deepdive and prepare thoughts/direction/cross-reference before coming to larger group. I can meet with people ahead of time to do that
scotto: Would be happy to talk to you, James. I'm usually the one going back and forth on it
jcraig: Can write it up as a wiki page so people can correct mistakes/review
jamesn: Keith put a deep dive request in; would you like to set something up and present to folks?
keithamus: Yes, happy to do so for next week
… (RE: aria #2118)
jamesn: I will set that up for week of Feb 15
Rahim: We don't have any labels for tests?
spectranaut_: I will take this as an action item, i.e., to standardize labels. Need one for WPT investigation in particular
Call for consensus: DPUB-ARIA 1.1 to CR
jamesn: dpub-aria 1.1 wants to go to candidate recommendation
… does anyone know what the changes are?
dmontalvo: Changes should be in change log
<spectranaut_> +1
jamesn: Many of these changes were made a long time ago. This is a call for consensus so if you agree, put +1 in IRC chat
… if you don't care, put nothing or 0
… disagree put -1
… if you need more time, let us know and we can send a formal call for consensus instead
<jamesn> +1
<jamesn> 01-Dec-2023: Removed the requirements to imply list items descendants of doc-bibliography and doc-endnotes are doc-biblioentry and doc-endnote
<CoryJoseph_> +1
<melsumner> +1
<TheoHale_> +1
<jcraig> +1
jcraig: As an FYI, if it comes up, the doc-biblioentry/doc-endnote were recently changed (James referencing this change log item: "01-Dec-2023: Removed the requirements to imply list items descendants of doc-bibliography and doc-endnotes are doc-biblioentry and doc-endnote")
jamesn: Specific issues can be filed against candidate recommendation, if you want
<Matt_King> +1
<Adam_Page> +1
+1
<scotto> +1
Rahim: Do we have WPT tests for this?
jcraig: Roles are tested as fallback roles (i.e., super class roles). I added a computed role column and testing against that now; hasn't landed yet
RESOLUTION: transition DPUB-ARIA 1.1 to CR https://
jamesn: Will note that this is OK to transition to candidate recommendation
… will help the get through CR if they can use WPT
jcraig: Most recent changes are a result of WPT testing
… Added tests for it but it's not in the focus area
<Zakim> melsumner, you wanted to say that there was another ACCNAME issue marked deep-dive, I might have been missing another label for it to be discussed?
melsumner: Added a deepdive but unsure to add as agenda as well?
Call for consensus: DPUB-AAM 1.1 to CR
jamesn: Even fewer items than dpub-aria 1.1...any objections to moving to CR?
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: Computed roles landed in dpub-aam. +1 from me
jamesn: Will put in a resolution. Does anyone object or need more time?
… Can be moved to email if needed
jcraig: I have a process question for Valerie: we had a question on computed role due to differences between WebKit and other browsers. E.g., WebKit's implementation was valid until the recent change but because we don't have at least 2 implementations, is that cause for concern for moving to CR?
jamesn: If we have commitment to implement, not a concern
jcraig: WebKit has a timeline but will not be this year
Matt_King: When does it become evergreen? Is it after this CR exit?
jamesn: I can't recall
dmontalvo: I would need to double-check this as well
<jcraig> +1 to CR for dpub-aam 1.1
jcraig: I think James N. is right; we're moving into CR now so don't think there's a problem. I think it can't move to recommendation yet until the WPT results pass across the board in at least two separate implementations
RESOLUTION: transition DPUB-AAM 1.1 to CR https://
jamesn: Can I put this resolution in?
Rahim: How can I learn more about W3C standards track?
<spectranaut_> process for busy people: https://
dmontalvo: Can check out W3C process page
jamesn: Can have Felipe come and chat with the group
HTML: <callout> element for callouts/alerts/admonitions
<dmontalvo> Specific Process section on technical reports
scotto: There was an issue in HTML spec created to add a <callout> element; gist is that because there are a number of design systems that apply similar stylings to warnings/alerts/notes/tips, etc., they should somehow be one element (I have problems with this). I wanted to bring this to the WG's attention because there was a request for a11y feedback on path forward, and is it a good proposal
… I do think there's a good reason to add a note element. Other uses cases get tricky because there are existing elements that could be used that are better than an ARIA note role element to convey them
… I was hoping to talk about it and gather feedback. People can think about it, perhaps start email thread or discuss at a future ARIA WG meeting
… Based on how these types of issues go in the past, i.e., when a11y people deal with HTML issues may be counterproductive
Lots of uses cases (like a note in a spec)
melsumner: Like a "Do" or "Don't" note
Matt_King: These examples don't seem semantically equivalent
CoryJoseph_: Did we recently discuss a notification role? How would this proposed element coexist with that?
scotto: I think that's kind of the point, i.e., to lump these difference concepts together. And, there already exist semantics to achieve these are already (like not using <div>s)
jamesn: Provide feedback to Scott please