zoom issues. start without me
<Wilco> scribe: Will_C
WIlco: Explains to will about scribing...
Group agrees scribing is fun
Wilco: should we extend time on this?
Group agrees
RESOLUTION: Extend CFC until next meeting
78fd32 has all approvals, needs one week call for review
Trevor: will send out call today
307n52 - presentational children. No Karen today
Changes weren't done, Karen is in a conflicting meeting
Will: Having difficulty with github, will make meeting with Wilco to resolve 80f0bf
WIlco: in future, when opening pull requests related to issues, please put Pull# in google sheet
a25f45 - in CFC.
no new pull requests since last week
#1775 for Wilco to look at, #1773 too
PR 1760 review ended today
Helen: PR 1747 - was broken ad Helen fixed.
PR 1747 - too many references to 1.3.1. Those have been removed, except for one. Will C approved
Jennifer C, Trevor B, and Carlos to review too
PR 1740 is going to be merged.
group agrees it's ok to merge. It's an editorial change.
Question: Are we going to start having a 'related rules' section?
Wilco: Yes. and don't need to go back to retroactively add it. Just going forward, for closely related rules
Will C: review question.
WIlco answered.
Wilco: I have changed the tab names in the sheet.
In Tabs, removed rule ID, and gave two word summary instead
Daniel: It helps with screen readers.
Most of rule has been got through. Rule requires that all headings have accessible name
Some of group don't think that should be required because SR consistently ignore empty headings.
Will C: I think this should be an issue. Will try and recreate blank headings in the accessibility tree of NVDA
Wilco: My vote changes if Will is right.
Kathy: I agree. But I also have a
different comment about a restriction.
... Should this rule apply to visible headings only?
Trevor: I was trying to test the heading
Helen: I do not think hidden headings apply. It's a legacy software issue, rather than a failure of checkpoint
Daniel: It's a fair point. FIrst thing that needs to happen is that there is some visual indication of a heading.
Wilco: The page structure needs
to be available in a programmatic way.
... 1.3.1 is about information relationships and structure. The
visual structure needs to be available in a programmatic way.
But if you have not needed headings in the heading list, that's
a problem. Means structure of page is no longer
programmatically available
if hidden headings end up in the heading list, it seems like an issue
Trevor: I tested one browser and
NVDA and blank header did NOT show up
... I wouldn't be against adding a small section to this rule
about ignoring the style section of headings. Like if you were
to make a heading 15px with a blue background, to make a
division section, it's an empty heading that breaks up a page
that is maybe structural?
Kathy: That might be a different rule. This rule is heading structure is there, but no accessible name.
WIlco: Yes, this is examples like aria hidden headings, images in a heading without alt. but there is one with an empty heading. Example 6
Kathy: Is a heading still a heading if there is nothing on the screen
Helen: Technically this is not
invalid markup.
... More of a best practice than a failure.
Kathy: This isn't a visual heading so that it wouldn't need heading markup. part 2 of 1.3.1 - if its not a heading, don't give it heading markup.
Wilco: I propose - if it turns out there is a good number of AT that include empty headings in heading list, it's reasonable. if not, then deprecate it.
+1
<Helen> +1
<dmontalvo> +1
<kathyeng> +1
<JennC> +1
<trevor> +1
RESOLUTION: Will to test failed examples in AT, if it turns out these are ignored in heading list, the ACT TF recommends the rule to be deprecated.
<dmontalvo> +1
Wilco: JAWS, NVDA, Voiceover and talkback should be tested for this.
Kathy: If it's just visible headings only, then the applicability of the rule would be narrower.
Wilco: there are two examples without visible headings.
Kathy: If it comes back that AT
does ignore these, I would still think that 1.3.1 is dealing
with visible presentation only
... I would still fail 5 and 6 regardless of AT test
results.
... These are things that have heading markup that should not
have heading markup.
Daniel: Example 4 is failing because of misuse of role="presentation"
<dmontalvo> Will: That seems like a misuse of role presentation and that's why this should fail
Kathy: Good example because you visually have something in the image.
Wilco: Can you suggest a change to figure out where your opinion differs from what the rule says?
Kathy: in applicability, adding 'is visible'.
WIlco: 1, 2, 3, 4 are visible and would fail.
Kathy: 5 isn't visible and would fail 1.3.1 but not for this reason.
Wilco: we need to spend another
week on this one.
... Needs to restate a negative comment.
... Should we clean up passed example 3?
Already a rule.
We have a hard stop at 10