See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: nigel
Nigel: For today we have TPAC, TTML2, IMSC. Anything else, or anything specific to cover?
Thierry: Nothing to report on WebVTT - the review is ongoing until Sep 22.
Glenn: There may be a couple of
TTML2 PRs to look at. I merged Nigel's correction on the
... HDR appendix, and one or two others to cover in that part
of the agenda.
Nigel: Okay if there's nothing else let's get going...
Nigel: We need to think about the agenda points we wish to cover.
Nigel: I think we plan to talk about TTML2 CR, IMSC 2 requirements, IMSC 1.0.1
Pierre: +1 to finalising IMSC 2 requirements
Nigel: It would be good for everyone attending to add their names - only 3 of us on there now.
Glenn: I plan to attend.
Nigel: I don't know if we will need time for WebVTT but I guess there may well be.
Thierry: I think we should plan
at least a couple of hours, because by that time we will
... have ended all the comments and the responses to the
comments, so it will be time
... either to request a transition to CR or something close to
it.
Nigel: Do you think we will have agreed all the dispositions for the current review by then?
Thierry: So far there have been
no comments. We're still working on finalising the
dispositions
... from the first review. It's hard to tell right now, even
what the current status of the first
... review is.
Nigel: Ok. For TTML2 that should
be about dispositions to comments also, and closing
... issues before moving to CR.
... For TTML2 and CSS style attribute/property value alignment
we need some use cases
... which I'm hoping for input from Netflix on.
Pierre: I'm expecting something
also by end of September from Netflix for IMSC 2
requirements
... which could well be useful for TTML2 / CSS also.
... How receptive are the CSS folk to this?
Nigel: It's hard for me to
assess. Maybe with use cases and expected usage data that
... could be more encouraging.
Glenn: My sense is that if
there's a reason to believe that features will be used more
widely
... then that would encourage browser makers to go ahead and
implement, especially
... if there are some content providers asking for it. Some
more theoretical people may
... approve putting features in the specs but that doesn't mean
that the browsers will
... implement them, especially if they get the impression that
they're only for TTML2 support.
... Some of the issues would be more interesting to them, such
as driving out inconsistent
... behaviour like on line breaks and white space.
Pierre: The lack of outline
support is an easy one to push in the sense that it's used
in
... 100% of DVDs and Blu-Rays.
Invitation for CSS WG to attend TTWG at TPAC.
Nigel: I've had no responses to the invitation yet.
<scribe> ACTION: nigel Send CSSWG an invitation reminder by 2017-09-07 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/08/31-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-504 - Send csswg an invitation reminder by 2017-09-07 [on Nigel Megitt - due 2017-09-07].
Pierre: Maybe we ought to target
specific folk who may have run into some of the issues,
... like Apple who has been implementing IMSC 1 recently.
Nigel: Given the timing, if we
had some documentation to share with CSSWG even before
... end of September that could be useful. I'm hoping for
something from Netflix and I'm
... also gathering information from a couple of areas within
BBC that may well drive needs
... for, say, Japanese, language requirements. I'm not clear
exactly which attribute values
... need to be supported though.
Glenn: It may be useful to look
at, say, ruby overhang, where the JLReqs detail an issue,
... with some support in existing Japanese subtitle systems,
whereas CSS postponed it
... until, say, Level 4, where only a few folk in the CSSWG
understood the issues clearly.
... One of the issues may be persuading the others about the
need to implement it.
... In the first order we need to persuade ourselves of it.
Nigel: Just to clarify, I'm
looking for data points about how, say, BBC, would use the
features
... if we were to move into greenfield territory, and, say,
begin providing closed captions
... in Japanese. For example, would we even use ruby - I just
don't know.
Glenn: I'd admit that the values
I chose in TTML2 were based on what decisions an
... implementation would need to make, to expose styling
decisions to authors. That's not
... to say that all users would necessarily want to take every
decision tree path.
Nigel: That reminds me also that
it would likely be useful input to CSSWG to provide
... tests alongside use cases.
Glenn: Not only that but also images.
Nigel: Coming back to the agenda,
if there are any specific discussion topics for our
meeting
... at TPAC, then let me know please or edit the wiki page.
Nigel: See also the above discussion about the joint meeting with CSS WG at TPAC.
Glenn: My suggestion is to look
at the Editor's CR Worklist milestone and click on the "closed"
items, of which there are 13.
... Those are issues I've processed in the last 2 weeks, many
of which are HR comments,
... so I expect the Group needs to approve the disposition of
those.
Nigel: Incidentally, you removed some milestones...
Glenn: I reorganised them.
Nigel: I wondered why you didn't just close the milestones, rather than removing them?
Glenn: Yes that would have been a better option, I'll do that next time.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/406
Glenn: The TAG and CSS feedback
was that semantics defined only in terms of XSL-FO
... where possible; if similar but different semantics are
available in CSS properties
... mention them at least informatively.
... That's a nice idea, but it's not actionable, so I'm
suggesting closing as "works for me"
... and incorporating this into our philosophy for future
consideration.
Nigel: I think that would be
unhelpful since we would then lose track of it. As an
alternative
... I would propose creating sub-issues with the specific in
and treating this as an
... umbrella issue, to turn this into something concrete.
Glenn: We could use Change
Proposals for this. For previous comments to this for
example
... for TTML1 then we usually said Thank you, we'll do it
later, and then closed the issue.
Nigel: And did you do it later?
Glenn: No
Nigel: That's why I don't want to
close this - we'll just forget it again.
... I think the first step is to go through.
Glenn: I can see that this would
be useful information for people coming from a different
... space but it isn't necessary, so it could turn into spec
clutter.
... I could accept this if someone else does the work.
Nigel: I think a lot of the work has already been done in the CSS requirements wiki page.
Glenn: One thing that would be
worth noting is "impedance mismatches" but I think
they've
... mostly been identified.
Nigel: In many ways those are the most interesting ones.
Glenn: I agree. It may be most
useful to put that in the spec highlighting areas of
potential
... difficulty. I don't know if its best to put that inline or
in an appendix.
... So you want to leave this open until there are actionable
tasks?
Nigel: yes.
Glenn: I've assigned it to you Nigel.
Nigel: That's fine, I'll try to progress this as fast as I can.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/248
Glenn: On this one, no real
discussion, but I realised I need to add a note to that i18n
can
... sign off on it, so I should be able to take care of that
without any further input. I'll do this
... unles Dae steps in and does so.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/254
Glenn: In this case I added a note that reflects the intended disposition.
Glenn: The note I added should reflect Richard's request.
Nigel: OK that seems reasonable to me.
SUMMARY: Group ok with this disposition
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/256
Glenn: Since i18n has closed this on their review tracker I closed this.
Nigel: Seems fine to me.
SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG
Glenn: I'll create a label for indicating that the group has agreed the disposition.
Thierry: What would be the label?
Nigel: There are two states to track: 1. Disposition agreed by WG, 2. Disposition accepted by commenter.
Glenn: My intent was to indicate that the WG intent has been agreed.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/258
Glenn: This was a very
interesting case that Richard raised, where the JLReq shows
a
... requirement that we didn't implement. Dae told us that the
Japanese subtitle companies
... have never asked for it, and it probably came out of
printed material, so on that basis
... i18n closed this on their tracker. I proposed a possible
future direction in case this
... behaviour is needed, and propose to close this for now.
Nigel: I support the current
proposition, to do nothing but indicate how we'd do it in
the
... future if we had to.
SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/261
Glenn: i18n closed this issue, thanking us for looking at it.
Nigel: Looks good to me.
SUMMARY: Disposition agreed by WG
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/263
Nigel: I see that Richard has closed this on the i18n tracker, so I think this is all done.
Glenn: Part of this was
education. On May 11 we resolved to take no action and mark
as
... works for me.
SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed disposition)
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/269
Nigel: Pierre proposed a fix for this which was merged, and also added it to imsc-tests.
Glenn: We did those updates and
i18n closed this in their tracker.
... We closed this back on May 6
Nigel: Oh yes we probably shouldn't have since it was an HR comment.
SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed disposition)
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/270
Nigel: We did this, and Addison said he was satisfied.
Glenn: And i18n closed this on
their tracker.
... I see Nigel closed this issue on April 28. I'm only raising
this here because I put it on my
... milestone to track the fact that we had addressed it.
SUMMARY: No further action to take (WG already agreed disposition)
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/271
Glenn: I commented that we haven't received further comments, and closed it.
Nigel: It's been 3 months, and the proposed change (before commit) got a thumbs-up from Richard.
Glenn: i18n disposed of the
closely related #270 I suspect they haven't tracked this,
otherwise
... Richard would have said something.
SUMMARY: Group assumes there is no further comment on this, and the disposition is agreed.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/397
Glenn: I merged #398 without any changes except to remove the HTML generated version.
Nigel: Thank you, I always include that for easier previewing.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/401
Glenn: I made the fix for this, just an editorial one.
Nigel: Thank you.
github-bot, end topic
Glenn: We've now discussed all the issue I worked on, thank you!
Nigel: I'm doubtful for next week but will send an agenda regardless.
Glenn: Just to note that
henceforth I will be available on Thursday mornings so unless
I
... send a regret I have no outstanding tentative regrets.
Nigel: Thanks all! [adjourn meeting]