Efficient XML Interchange Working Group Teleconference

28 Jun 2016

See also: IRC log




<scribe> scribe: TK

<scribe> scribeNick: taki

<brutzman> Wondering if we might write up a strategy for compressing Open Web Architecture (OWA) recommendations and then seek feedback from Liam

<brutzman> ... JSON, CSS, HTML5 XHTML encoding, SVG, MathML

<brutzman> ... perhaps meeting with Liam before TPAC would be even better, then decide how to proceed next

<brutzman> Another potential TPAC topic is looking at whether any emerging XML Security activity might interrelate to EXI

<brutzman> (earlier in meeting) we agreed to meet at regular times during middle 2 weeks of July while Taki is away. DP and DB to discuss potential approaches to achieve EXI for CSS.

<brutzman> Sounds like a good idea. Do you think condensed results are compelling enough for a lightning talk as well? That might provide a setup for an EXI OWA challenge as well...

<brutzman> TPAC planning discussion. https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/schedule.html

<brutzman> Another related meeting topic: inviting experts to plan out creation of schemas for HTML5 XHTML encoding, SVG schema, and MathML RelaxNG schema -> XML schema.

<brutzman> Motivation: if we indeed pursue the creation of schemas for these important W3C recommendations, it would be good for each working group to send a representative so that the schemas are widely acceptable.

<brutzman> There might be other synergies possible as well: OWA compression, signature and encryption as a common capability.

<brutzman> Conceivably that is even a goal Recommendation as part of EXI 2 efforts.

<brutzman> DP: discussion of long attribute strings in RDF that are often uri values, might be hard to put in schema for good compaction

<brutzman> Wondering, do those attibutes often have common long uri base that might make creation of string tables for attribute bases of interest? or are they refactorable into a namespace prefix?

<brutzman> might e interesting to pursue EXI for RDF and OWL as well. Walking around the family of most-important W3C Recommendations might be a good 2017 strategy.

<brutzman> DP: noted feedback from others that they don't want an XML schema

<brutzman> is that just a preference or a problem? does XML schema limit them?

<brutzman> ... there is a difference between diligent effort to allow validation, or lack of perceived need, and whether there is a blocker to necessary expressiveness.

<brutzman> DP: hasn't heard any specific objections. has heard of preferences regarding XML Schema 1.1, but mostly heard that it was more work than perceived benefit.

<brutzman> wondering if there is a list of changes in XML Schema 1.1 from version 1.0?

<brutzman> Altova blog: http://blog.altova.com/what-s-new-in-xml-schema-11/

<brutzman> we agreed to add XML Schema 1.1 to the EXI 2 collection of ideas

<brutzman> Regarding "perceived value" of XML schemas: yes it is a curious state of affairs that other XML-related working groups don't see the value of validation.

<brutzman> Nevertheless it would be relatively easy for us to create working schemas, and ask the other groups to review and/or improve them.

<brutzman> In that way, we could build schemas that are not only tested with EXI but perhaps even precompressed for use with EXI.

<brutzman> Another related point is that lacking a schema is somewhat similar to saying the following are unimportant: strict validation, signature, encryption and compression

<brutzman> DP: there is a burden to sharing and correctly maintaining a schema

<brutzman> wondering isn't that fairly infrequent though, corresponding to publication of a REC version?

<brutzman> DP: informal testing of an experimental XHTML schema did not show significant compaction because majority of page information is not structural

<brutzman> OK interesting... can you share that draft XHTML schema you created?

<brutzman> DP: yes, it was a few years back... will check

<brutzman> of related interest: there is a simple path for any HTML, valid or not, to become XHTML: simply load it into the DOM, as specified by HTML5, then serialize it back out as XHTML encoding.

<brutzman> Anyway I think it is an interesting project to collect suitable schemas for all of these major RECs so that data archives of optionally compressed/signed/enrypted documents are possible

<brutzman> ... and also that does not really interfere with any other working group's lack of collective interest in specifying a corresponding XML schema for their RECs.

<brutzman> ... so EXI working group could proceed independently while inviting participation and review, without creating any conflict.

<brutzman> ... perhaps some "best practices" might be gleaned from such an effort as well.

<brutzman> BTW we have a use case for comprehensive validation/compression/security: creating online archives of additive manufacturing (AM) 3D models

<brutzman> ... example: NIH 3D Print Exchange http://3dprint.nih.gov

<brutzman> ... security is needed for medical-related models, and compression will also likely be needed when we create larger models such as 3D scans and 3D-printable versions

<brutzman> Interesting xhtml basic schema, thanks. From that document: <xs:documentation> This is the XML Schema driver for XHTML Basic 1.0. Please use this namespace for XHTML elements: "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" $Id: 28-exi-minutes.html,v 1.1 2016/06/28 15:37:46 swick Exp $ </xs:documentation>

I had one use case that uses rigorous HTML validation through XHTML schemas. It was a part of XBRL standard.

I also noticed the compiled grammars for XHTML schema was rather large.

I did not nail down the reason why the grammars were large.

XBRL, unfortunately, does not put priority in compacting their documents.

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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