See also: IRC log
<jamesn> HTML 4 Example: https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/landmarks/html4/index.html
<jamesn> HTML 5 Example: https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/landmarks/html5/index.html
<scribe> scribe: Birkir
JN: JG, did you look at Leonie's alternative proposal?
JG: Her proposal is a subset of what we did, this proposal is written for developers, and we feel the extra stuff is necessary.
AA: Proposal to put html5 elsewhere not practical.
JG: More developers know about html5 than ARIA.
JN: WE need to be mindful of the purpose, make sure we are not writing an html5 spec.
AA: We think we should include
html5 tags taht map to our roles.
... We save more space by getting rid of the tables.
JN: Tables are going, that is an editorial thing.
AA: Developers are never going to look in other specs, we need to keep all info in same document.
MB: Leonie does a good job of explaining what a landmark is in her draft, would be good to mix that simplicity with this version.
JN: Hard to find the ARIA stuff
in this draft (e.g. the header element).
... Design pattern only talks banner, techniques talk about
html5 header element.
AA: Didn't we use html5 technique first, because you should use native html element.
JG: Like table in section 2.1, can't we just refer back to it in the techniques?
<MichielBijl> Léonie's proposal: https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/aria/landmarks/practices/aria-practices.html
JG: and by JG I mean jn.
(insert grumble from scribe, picked a bad day to scribe).
MB, what are we trying to solve?
JG: We are helping developers use landmarks. We are not trying to make it long or short.
Jemma: Leonie's version does not tell developers what to do, this draft is better at that.
JN: How about we start each technique with an html5 reference, followed by ARIA.
Jemma: This is good information, we just need to format it more concisely.
AA: We should have a master bullet under technique that says "if using html5", followed by sub bullets, then we have a separate master bullet saying "if not using html5" along with the bullets for that section.
JN: If we change the wording rather than content this becomes more of an editorial process.
MB: I don't like the html5.
AA: They need to know this information.
JG: People don't know html5, landmarks.
Birkir: In my experience, developers benefit from all info in one place.
JN: Let's keep this in same document, but highlight the ARIA information. This is primarily an ARIA document.
JG: Did anybody run this by a
developer.
... I did.
JN: Review section 2.2 - step 3.
Everything is fine up to step 3, except step 1.
Refering to "region" in step 1 could be confusing (as opposed to the region role).
<MichielBijl> How about: “Identify the top level regions of content within the document, like the header, main content, footer or navigation”
JN: We don't want people to break
out in regions, and use the region role.
... HOw about ARIA area?
Crowd agrees to change "region" to "area".
scribe: looking for synnonyms for region .. zone?
BG: How about Subarea? (not to be confused with Siberia).
AA: area is not a synonym for region.
JG: How about junk .... (scribe note, he may have said "chunk").
JN: How about we go with area
...
... Back to step 3.
... Need to qualify step 3 with "if the area needs an
aria-label", some landmarks do not need a label.
Birkir: I advise developers to not label banner, main and contentinfo.
JN: Ditto for a navigation or search, if there is only one on the page.
JG: Step 1 is good, the region landmark is an exception because region landmark must ahve a label.
JN: Enough to make minor tweak to
bullet 3. Add "if region needs label", actually "if area needs
label".
... Change step 3 to "providing labels when required.
AA: Or just labeling.
MB: How about "add label", fits
into the flow of step names.
... see test for step 1.
JN: Adding label to "main" can be confusing.
JG: Agreed, make sure bullets make sense even when copied and put on slides without context.
<jamesn> "Add Labels when needed"
<MichielBijl> +1
<jamesn> "Creating unique labels"
Birkir: JG "How about create unique labels".
<jamesn> "Create unique labels"
JN: I prefer "create unique labels" to "label every region".
Theresa: How about adding a step before the labeling, determine if labeling is required.
AA: Move first bullet under current step 3 to that step.
MB: Do we really have to make editorial changes for people who are too lazy to read before they drop content on their slides?
JN: How about we move on, does
not look like we are agreeing.
... Have people reviewed each section for accuracy and
content?
AA: Theresa/John and I have.
JG: WE ahve reviewed this based on group feedback in the past.
<jamesn> https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/landmarks/html4/index.html
<jamesn> https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/landmarks/html5/index.html
JN: TAke a look at the examples (link pasted into IRC):
JG: Landmarks in html5 examples
are used with html5 sectioning elements, ARIA roles used in
html4 example.
... If you hover over landmarks you get additional info.
FF on Windows is not working with example.
AA: Why is "html5 sectioning element" in html4 example?
JG: We'll update the examples so one only talks about hhtml4, the other talks about html5 (currently they are too similar).
JN: Example breaks on FF38, works on 45.
JG: How far back do we need to go with browser support.
MB: Are we talking these examples specifically, or ARIA APG?
JG: We are only talking the browser support for this particular example.
JN: Does not work in IE11.
JG: We ahve a fix for IE11.
MB: APG has no browser requirements.
JN: Let's try to support the most common browsers in our examples.
BG: Are we talking landmarks?
JN: No, just the two buttons
"show landmarks" and "show headings" buttons.
... How about we just show landmarks all the time.
... Don't like having the text from the landmark pattern in
this example. How about using some open source text.
JG: Matt suggested this.
<MichielBijl> I'll quit as an editor if we add lorem ipsum to the APG…
JN: Problem is if we update the spec text and forget to update it in the example, could cause confusion?
<MichielBijl> ;)
JG: We'll consider it.
JN: "hover over tabs" not inclusive, what about keyboard users?
AA: What are we talking about, can't get to it in my brwoser.
JN: Need a keyboard accessible way.
JG: WE will (and John is gone).
Jemma: Still working on treeview
example.
... Fred sent me email asking if we could have interactive
tree. Are we creating an example for taht in addition to the
simple treeview and treeview using aria-owns.
JN: Start with the first 2, those who want more are welcome to creat it, or we can create it as a bonus at the end.
<jemma> For example, if you were to make an interactive dialog tree builder and each leaf could have actions such as duplicate, move, delete, edit text, edit mood, add alternative or make new leaf. And a leaf would have text, a list of alternatives (that mean the same thing), a mood and information value. What is the recommended structure for the branches (which have the same stuff as leaves + leaves) and leaves?
<jemma> this is what Fred asked about
Birkir: What is "mood" are we trying to create an ARIA cow here?
JN: We need to create the basic examples, we can't create everything everybody is asking for.
Jemma: Is it ok to copy email to minutes?
JN: If yo copy the relevant
sections, yes.
... Do we want to tackle the grid today?
<MichielBijl> Headings: https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/aria/headings/practices/aria-practices.html
Everybody: no!
MB: Replaced all tables from the design patterns, replaced them with headings.
AA: Where would I see an example?
<MichielBijl> Button design pattern: https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/aria/headings/practices/aria-practices.html#button
MB: Refer to latest design patterns.
<MichielBijl> Current APG button design pattern: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#button
MB: Basically replaced column headers in table with actual headings.
AA: Why are we doing this?
JN: They are terrible, especially on mobile devices, you will scroll all over the place.
MB: Also it is not tabular data.
Birkir: Why do we list every global attribute insteadof collectively listing "global "attributes? .. oh wait, I am taling the ARIA spec, not APG, case rested.
AA: Should we replace "description" heading with "overview".
<jemma> great job, Michiel for editing/removing table layout
MB: example heading is representative, it does not have to be duplicated.
AA/JN: It was easier to see all stuff related to one thing in table (visually), could just be habit.
JN: Could we add separators?
MB: We just removed them.
... Could modify CSS.
AA: What about the old style print out look?
Jemma: Looks fine in print view.
AA: Trying to figure out how better visually delineate between sections.
MB: This is on my agenda.
AA: I don't know anybody in their right mind who would print out the APG.
<MichielBijl> title: ARIA Authoring Practices
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Jemma: CAn't copy the email into chat.// Found Scribe: Birkir Inferring ScribeNick: Birkir Present: JonGunderson jaeunjemmaku AnnAbbott JamesNurthen MichielBijl Birkir TeresaBoers WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting Got date from IRC log name: 04 Apr 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/04/04-aria-apg-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]