<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0265.html

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-ARIA Working Group

<richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich

<scribe> scribe: janina

status of wgs, pubs

Today is the last formal day for pf

We intend ton continue to use the email esources, etc., until we get more of our active people joined

Invited experts are still not migrated to the new groups, for instance

Request is pending, and Michael is pinging on it

rs: Can we stay on pf in the meantime

mc: Don't expect it will be closed down

mc If something happens, I'll be on it immediately

mc: re pubs
... All 3 aria related pubs published today
... was hair raising as approvals came in late

[congrats all around]

rs: Notes he's on vacation next week, Michael will chair with focus on testable statements
... It allows people to get work done over the next weeks without necessarily showing up at a telecon
... Is the intent to move to aria lists in January?

mc: Yes, both for aria and apa

rs: asking whether aapi work should move or stay on x-tech

mc: we did it initially because it was publically postable
... public-aria will be publically readable

jd: x-tech is also publically writable, so was part of the reason, no?

mc: That was setup later

janina: notes is an apa list, not aria

clown: makes it appropriate for aapi

mc: Reason public-aria isn't self-subscrible is concerns over rand

<bgaraventa1979> np :)

mk: did other groups have these concerns? Outside of wai?

mc: Some have allowed self-subscription, which is why we're being pushed for it
... neither approach is wrong according to the w3c rules

rs: I believe all our work is open, that's important to our success

mc: it is possible to be added by request to me, though at this point i would not grand because of rand
... If you're contributing, you should be a wg member and have accepted the terms

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0265.html

mc: another reason is that signing up includes the promise to behave -- and someone who isn't can be bumped on that basis
... this has been an issue on other lists
... those two concerns are why I have strong reservations about allowing self-subscription

rs: Agree people have abused in the past, and I want to avoid that going forward

mc: It's hard to boot someone who self-subscribed, whereas there are agreements about behavior when you join the wg

mk: a moderated subscribe would avoid this, no?

mc: If there's a practice where people filtering is necessary, it could be a problem

rs: We need to be able to exclude someone who becomes disruptive
... a moderated request to ask sometime next year? That would be OK

mc: Let's make sure we get wider review before we go with that

<bgaraventa1979> +q

mk: asking about nonmember sharing ip on list, aren't you required to claim that at some point?

mc: More likely by oversight than illwill, but members have higher bar of awareness
... also, we need participants to make a commitment to contribute to the wg

janina: concern about unacknowledged terms

mc: more work, but can be done

fe: will there be a list of subscribers?

mc: will need to look into that. There's a listing I can see, but unaware of it's public

<JF> +1 Bryan

janina: asking whether we're staying with public plus admin for members only

mc: admin for CfC's primarily, which needs to be member only

rs: Should we have Michael investigate a moderated subscription approach and give a proposal?
... I think it appropriate that we do our best to open as much as is reasonable
... Sometime in January?

mc: Ideal to respond sooner rather than later
... Main thing we need is the terms email that needs to be agreed

rs: Asking whether there any issues with Michael proceeding to institute a moderated subscription process

<JF> +1

fe: Does this apply to joint TFs?

mc: Each list has its own procedures

RESOLUTION: Michael will create a moderated subscription procedure and et to Rich for CfC posting

<cyns> I have another meeting and needed to drop off

mc: do we still need the wai x-tech list?

rs: don't think so

clown: OK with moving aapi to aria list
... but only when I get subscribed! :>

<richardschwerdtfeger> acl bg

<richardschwerdtfeger> acl bg

RESOLUTION: Current x-tech discussions will move to public-aria at the beginning of the year

rs: Looking forward
... We'll revisit the description disambiguation mechanism on the 17th
... Next week is test stuff with Michael
... We will break the weeks of Dec 21, 28 and Jan 4
... First 2016 meeting will be January 14

action-1736

action-1736?

<trackbot> action-1736 -- James Nurthen to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-10-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736

rs: Hmmm, no JN
... Is there strong feeling to keep this for ARIA-1.1, someone would need to take it up
... This is from the Mac platform ...

mb: I can take a crack at it
... jn was to write, and I was to proof

rs: How strongly do people want this?

mk: A weak req
... very little at does much of anything with this
... Never relied on this feature in any platform -- after 30 years of using at

mb: Just interested because can be used for styling

<JF> +1 to a coga issue... was going to suggest that

rs: Know he'd like it, but believe we'd have had the proposal if it were really necessary for 1.1

jf: Notes that enter immediately triggers submit, even if not marked as primary

rs: we keep pushing out the writeup -- for months

<joanie> +1 to what JF just said about being a nice-to-have; not a critical.

rs: sounds like a nice to have, but not essential for 1.1
... Any objection to push to 2.0?

RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to 2.0 since no proposal since logged in 2013

<clown> issue-624

<trackbot> issue-624 -- Primary Action Concept -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/624

mb: Would like to try getting it done?

rs: How soon?

mb: Next week?
... Would like to try

mc: Ping me if you want it on the agenda by Monday

<clown> action-1724

<trackbot> action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724

<clown> issue-610

<trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610

mk: Concerned not to lose agenda time for 1724 and action and issue-610
... Text for action-1724 is ready, but not yet posted for advance reading
... I'm able to send tomorrow

mc: Important that time between the 10th and when we meet January 14 a dead time -- testable statements could move forward then
... Will need to limit the time next week on other topics

action 1734

action-1734?

<trackbot> action-1734 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Get back to jason white on comment -- due 2015-10-15 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1734

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0264.html

rs: Problem with old table summary was only visible to at

<JF> +1

mk: would like to see "caption" and "description" defined so we can clearly discuss

janina: References previous discussion in HTML-A11Y about how long might be too long for alt. Discussion never concluded

mk: concerned that discussion is difficult because no one's clear what the terms mean

jf: Agree with mk
... we need a label for grx, we need a short description and a long description
... wonders whether mk agrees

mk: concerned there's also a 4th, where only visible via aapis

rs: Don't see this in aria-1.1

fe: professional orgs will have guidelines for what goes in caption, and we shouldn't be guiding that

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to say taht Matt's point about "on-demand" is important

jf: Reminding that user choice to read long descripts is important--any user should be able to get at it

rs: Recalling that we have problems with lack of ml support in some browsers
... I'm not trying to dodge the issue, just saying it's going to take longer than aria-1.1
... We can do some things for 1.1, esp via details
... reminds everyone that disambiguating use of details is our topic on dec 17

clown: bringing it back to rs' answer to jason ...

rs: currently not ideal

mk: recalling we had discussion on how to add a caption in a table, but did not conclude ...
... believe caption in table has served as its label

rs: you could have aria-labeledby to the label in the description

mk: this could get complicated in mapping html

rs: thinking of fig-caption referenced by describedby

mk: Argh
... more mapping problems
... duplicated words, sounds bad
... would read the label twice

clown: the words

mk: so table role for 1.1 and the aam will something about mapping ...

rs: if aria, it's easy

mk: just don't want caption to map into multiple ways

topic action 1672

action-1672?

<trackbot> action-1672 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672

rs: jd, is this cleared?

jd: not finding the language I think mc provided ...
... believe he did, but I can't find ...
... I'll keep looking, can mc also look?

mc: will check my outbox

<JF> Deprecated A deprecated element or attribute is one that has been outdated by newer constructs. Deprecated elements are defined in the reference manual in appropriate locations, but are clearly marked as deprecated. Deprecated elements may become obsolete in future versions of HTML.

<JF> source: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/conform.html

mc: recall the discussion and commiting to propose lang, but don't ecall beyond that

<mck> good one Joanie!

rs: lang needs to say "to be replaced with alternative in a lter version of aria"

mc: thought "replaced in this version, ..."
... Don't think we should mark things deprecated that don't have a replacement

<JF> +1 to Michael's point

jd: this is sounding more familiar

[people looking whether it's already in the spec]

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-grabbed

rs: not seeing it

mc: nothing in the commits

<richardschwerdtfeger> This property is planned for deprecation in a future version of WAI-ARiA.

mk: this feature is planned to be deprecated in the future?

jd: if ua's not already implemented this, don't bother implementing

mc: we did that for describedat
... we can add tot he terms
... have mixed feelings about "we intend to deprecate"
... but that's better than calling it "deprecated" when we don't have a replacement in place
... sort of "pre-deprecating"

<richardschwerdtfeger> This property is planned for deprecation in a future version of WAI-ARiA with a replacement.

<richardschwerdtfeger> This property is planned for deprecation, with a replacement, in a future version of WAI-ARiA.

rs: does it need to come back to the wg?

clown: would like to see the action moved to me so can take it to core aam

<Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask should something about deprecation be added to the mapping spec (core-aam) and to point out that James Nurthen sent text for primary button to the mailing

<Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out that James Nurthen sent text for primary button to the mailing list.

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/sor/sort/
Found Scribe: janina
Inferring ScribeNick: janina
Default Present: MichaelC, Michiel_Bijl, Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Fred, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia
Present: MichaelC Michiel_Bijl Rich Joseph_Scheuhammer Fred Joanmarie_Diggs janina fesch Rich_Schwerdtfeger Cynthia Bryan_Garaventa Matt_King JF suman
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0265.html
Found Date: 03 Dec 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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