Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

23 Nov 2015



Tzviya Siegman, Charles LaPierre, Karen Myers, Dave_Cramer (dauwe), Ivan Herman, Brady Duga, Tim Cole, Alan Stearns (astearns), Nick Barreto, Ayla Stein, Deborah Kaplan, PeterĀ  Krautzberger, Liam Quin, Daniel Weck, Bert Bos, Romain Deltour, Bill Kasdorf, Heather Flanagan
Vlad Levantovsky, Laura Fowler, Luc Audrain, Paul Belfanti, Markus Gylling, Nick Ruffilo, Hiroshi Sakakibara, Zheng Xu


tzviya: let's get started

... we need to approve the minutes from last week
... any comments?

(silence, sortof)

scribe: minutes approved.

ivan: minutes are perfect.

CSS Examples

tzviya: Topic: CSS examples
... we still need volunteers; we've had some on the list
... I had offered to provide some samples to Dave

<Daniel-Weck> Trying to get into WebEx...what the password? :)

tzviya: there's been some back and forth
... we need more samples for the csswg

dauwhe: examples from decimal alignment of tables

astearns: printed examples are better

tzviya: I can provide some PDFs, Paul offered
... a colleague sent me a list of issues

ivan: I might have another example
... a guy from Germany at a small pub talked to me about a book they put together by cutting and pasting journal articles
... kind of a collage
... he had something in PDF, 5k pages
... he may send me a few pages
... might have usage of float
... if I get it I'll send it to the list
... and we can comment

tzviya: I feel bad for the person reading a five thousand page PDF

ivan: print is 5k pages, they want to reproduce digitally
... anyone else with funky examples?


rdeltour: here on behalf of DAISY; also a member of EPUB WG

tzviya: we're happy to have you

New PWP Identifier Locator Task Force

tzviya: who's in, who's leading, goals, etc.
... Bill, are you on phone
... markus mentioned you agreed to lead

Bill_Kasdorf: Yes, I was volunteered

tzviya: Romain, Matt, and Markus have agreed to be on the Task Force

ivan: and probably me

tzviya: and me

Bill_Kasdorf: the arm-twisting began with the statement y'all would be on the task force

(general hilarity ensues)

tzviya: any other volunteers? But first let's talk about goals
... this group will be working with EPUB 3.1 WG
... with goal of identifying proposals for identifiers for both EPUB 3.1 and PWP
... submitting solutions to EPUB 3.1 by March
... forward-compatible
... talking about package identifier, not fragment identifiers

Bill_Kasdorf: while component and frag identifiers are still in scope, the initial path is package identifiers

ivan: I think that talking about pub identifier without talking about ID of components won't work
... but we don't need to worry about fragments

tzviya: we can talk about identifying the package and ch1, but not words in ch1

ivan: correct

tzviya: another issue is the state of the package; IDs need to be state-agnostic
... also relevant to EPUB 3.1 and the BFF format
... the portable EPUB (traditional) and BFF (readable online)

Bill_Kasdorf: not to blend these discussions
... BFF discussion is currently being thought of as a tightening up of EPUB 3.1

<ayla_stein> I'd be interested in participating on this working group

Bill_Kasdorf: Dave mentioned progressive enhancement last week
... does there need to be a distinction between relaxed epub and tightened-up epub?

tzviya: let's not get into this now; let's focus on identifiers

Bill_Kasdorf: the reason I mentioned that
... there is some recent work on ISTC
... which was moribund
... where that seems to be going
... it identifies in a more abstract way what is a publication
... it may allow various degrees of clustering
... this ISTC covers all versions of pub in English
... this other layer distinguishes between en-us and en-gb
... this other layer deals with translations or abridgements
... Ivan brought up we need URL and URN;
... Our spec should be agnostic about those identifiers
... we should provide syntax

ivan: two different things
... first, I would say that this task force is not really about identifiers
... we do not, must not define identifiers

<tzviya> +1

ivan: we are talking about locators

Bill_Kasdorf: thanks
... if you call task force identifiers you get into the morass

ivan: we should talk about locators
... what I wanted to say is
... I see two goals
... we have discussed a drafty thing in the PWP draft
... we must clean up this draft
... to see if it is proper, and what we need
... so manifest is workable etc
... I'd like a proof of concept
... showing it could work
... and we have to identify if there's anything there that should become a long-term standard
... maybe in a year we will set up a WG somewhere
... to standardize
... what of this can be used for EPUB 3.1 in spite of constraints
... but we need longer-term focus

nickbarreto: In relation to locators
... chapters within a publication
... is there any need for implicit relationship between locators
... in ch1 knowing ch2 is next

ivan: I'm not sure I understand

tzviya: is what you're talking about the relative position in the file?

nickbarreto: should locators have relationship with each other

ivan: what you just said...
... the way we define PWP is a set of different resources that someone decided belonged together
... locators can be very different... ch1 and foobar1 which could belong to the same doc
... so we shouldn't make assumptions
... maybe we need mapping in manifest
... and this is all part of the discussion
... the starting point is someone decides to conceptually put together resources from all over the place

tzviya: I think it's also important to recognize that IDPF is working on specific things
... and the goal of this task force is strictly the locator
... IDPF is worrying about linearity and spine and manifest and such
... the goal of this task force is strictly the locator

TimCole: this might be out of scope in near term
... with journals
... article 1 in Journal A will be article 7 in Journal B
... so locators can't have sequencing
... we shouldn't make assumptions about these things

tzviya: we're not talking about how to assemble the package, just how to locate items in the package

Bill_Kasdorf: it's 2-layered
... locate package, then you can locate components

tzviya: in practice, it might not be so two-stepped

Bill_Kasdorf: you have to have that single high-level locator
... it's not just a collection; the collection itself has to have a locator

tzviya: now that we've talked a bit about what this group will do
... timeline for proposals is March
... any other volunteers

Ivan: not identifier

Bill_Kasdorf: change name to locator?

tzviya: yes

(the usual silence when volunteers are requested)

<HeatherF> I will sign up

<ayla_stein> *thumbs up*

Call for Consensus on next publication of PWP

<tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/

tzviya: here's the current draft
... of the portable web publications white paper
... what's changed?

ivan: I did give an update last week
... a few comments on grammar etc

tzviya: ralph has checked for grammar

Bill_Kasdorf: FPWD?

ivan: no, second
... that's an ED, but I turn it into WD during formal publication process

tzviya: we can do call for consensus now

ivan: don't need to be formal
... does anyone formally object

(the good kind of silence)

<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to publishing

ivan: will probably be published on Thursday
... you americans will be eating Turkey

What next with PWP Draft/Work?

tzviya: one next step is putting together proposals for EPUB 3.1 WG
... did Ivan and Markus discuss?

(possible synchronicity)

ivan: we clarified some items for ourselves
... what I said about locator task force is to work out some details
... this is one way of moving ahead
... there are some other areas
... and I don't be the one writing all the details for all the areas
... so I would like to have a clearer idea where we go with this work
... in the coming half-year or year
... and see if there are areas other people want to pick up
... like security
... the user-control issues
... the packaging stuff we can put on hold for a while
... I want to see if all these ideas make sense
... Jake put together a skeleton
... and Daniel in Readium
... can we put togethter a proof-of-concept implementation
... and this might surface other issues
... and I can't do it all by myself

tzviya: we haven't talked much about an archive format

<ayla_stein> YES

<ayla_stein> *waves*

tzviya: which is nice for pubs but crucial for the library community
... it would involve talking with other communities

<HeatherF> Yep

tzviya: heather has some involvement, too
... and Lars
... who was sitting in at TPAC
... so we do have some members involved with the library community
... and dauwhe posted a link to a service worker experiment

ivan: we have to look at the document
... the document can be used as a scratch pad
... we put in sections on technical areas that must be addressed
... we can use same approach for what library/archiving community needs
... so we may need a new task force
... and looking at what's there... is it OK or not

tzviya: before we move on to acme publishing

<TimCole> yes

<ayla_stein> yep

tzviya: ayla, tim, heather... can you begin exploring library/archiving stuff?

<HeatherF> Yes, though I need to some guidance on exactly what to ask.

tzviya: do we want a timeline?

HeatherF: I'm happy to reach out to library community; I need guidance on what we're asking for

TimCole: scope will determine timeline
... but this is of great interest to library community
... what are the obligations of an archive as formats evolve

ivan: I see a task force forming

TimCole: what kinds of things would be needed?

tzviya: the first step would be looking at the PWP section about archiving
... and asking people involved in archiving if their use cases are addressed
... that's a basic first step

TimCole: we can come up with more use cases

ivan: once those use cases are clear in our minds, how does it influence the rest of the document

Bill_Kasdorf: there's an intersection with the locator group, which is versioning

TimCole: definitely
... should we go off now and come up with ideas?

ivan: go on
... I don't think Markus has specific things in mind

TimCole: given the holiday, it's probably premature to plan on this as topic for next week, but maybe the week after

<HeatherF> Email works fo rme.

TimCole: we can discuss on email with interested parties

tzviya: ivan, can you reach out to Lars?

ivan: yes
... first, let's see what Tim et al come up with; then we can bring in Lars
... we need something more tangible for him

tzviya: you were on the queue

ivan: Yes

tzviya: we were going to look at acme publishing

<ivan> https://dauwhe.github.io/epub-zero/acme-publishing/

pkra: https://github.com/dauwhe/epub-zero

<pkra> even MathJax works offline :)

<pkra> so cool, dauwhe!

ivan: if I take heat radiation

<pkra> (caveat emptor: which has some horrible MathML coding...)

ivan: the question is how can we use this starting code and publications
... as being a proof of concept for PWP
... from your point of view, what are the missing bits

tzviya: epub comes with a lot; somethings that's good and sometimes it's bad
... maybe we can improve the a11y
... there's more to do with this
... it exists in a rudimentary way, but we can add more

ivan: from our point of view
... what I would like to separate
... what should be done by a smart implementation
... and what is necessary to add to the basic technology
... in a way, the user interface is not our job

dauwhe: but we want the format to at least make this kind of thing possible

tzviya: it would be helpful to get more feedback, review from more people

me astearns: LOL

<pkra> yes.

<ayla_stein> ...not really


<ayla_stein> no

tzviya: we've been assuming people are familiar with service workers
... but some might not be so familiar with this work

<ayla_stein> okay, thank you!

<ayla_stein> I'll try to do some reading too

tzviya: we have just five minutes, but should give more background

ivan: and how does it relate to the pwp conversation

<Daniel-Weck>ReĀ  Service Workers: I posted comments in response to Ivan's issue on GitHub:

<Daniel-Weck> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/issues/6#issuecomment-158994118

tzviya: next time we talk about this, we'll give more background

<Bill_Kasdorf> Proposed motto for Acme Publishing: When you have an anvil, everything looks like a roadrunner.

tzviya: please look and give Dave feedback
... and tell us if it's creating trouble

ivan: do we want to do a cleaned-up repo as PWP proof of concept eventually
... it would be great to have non-books there
... it would be great to have academic papers, to have magazines

<pkra> +q

ivan: that may bring up new issues

tzviya: I'm working on 7 journals; I'll find out if I can publish anything

Bill_Kasdorf: I'm sure you can take a PLOS article

tzviya: open access is tricky

pkra: I just wanted to volunteer
... to help with this part

tzviya: excellent

<pkra> +1

<nickbarreto> me +1 Dave is great

<ivan> Dave is great!

<tzviya> for the record, dave is great

<ayla_stein> +1

<clapierre> +1 Dave!

<Bert> (Is there documentation what rel/class/ID attributes you need to add to make a set of pages into a publication?)

<ivan> https://dauwhe.github.io/epub-zero/acme-publishing/

<pkra> got it.

pkra: https://github.com/dauwhe/epub-zero

<pkra> dauwhe is great.

tzviya: any closing remarks?


<ayla_stein> thanks!

tzviya: happy thanksgiving etc

<HeatherF> All Americans, enjoy your holiday. All Europeans, enjoy your holiday from Americans.

(more hilarity)

<ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.144 (CVS log)
$Date: 2015/11/24 09:34:49 $