<trackbot> Date: 10 September 2015

<richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> not sure why I am not hearing audio

<scribe> scribe: janina

janina reporting nothing specific on charters, however

<clown> issue-633

<trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633

there is discussion on how to move WAPA, IndieUI Events, etc. forward between Web Platforms and ARIA

issue-633

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: 1688? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html#action01]

matt: actions are wrong, and have pulled us off topic
... issue has to do with making interactive lists
... static lists are not on topic
... currently in option or tree
... currently the only acceptable patterns
... but people are doing this in many ways
... ranging from list of links/checkboxes
... or a list of composite-type items, e.g. search trees
... a list of communities, or of wikis
... or the linkedin list of "people you know"
... so composites or single interactive items
... items we can solve with authoring guidance using grid
... this is pretty simple
... for composites ...
... need to deal with infinite scroll ...

<mck> Role articlefeed

<mck> A landmark region containing a dynamic list of articles. Each article is focusable. As the user moves focus among articles or their content, the author MAY add articles to or

matt: not sure what to call it

<mck> remove articles from either end of the list.

<mck> Note: will also need to support aria-setsize and aria-posinset on article.

matt: above to support infinite scroll, i.e. yahoo, facebook, linkedin
... more content gets added or removed as one scrolls
... considered whether a region attribute or similar might work
... but changing a rolve attrib adds confusion

<clown> From the issue: <div role=listview itemrole="link" aria-multiselectable="false">

<clown> <A aria-posinset="1" ..../>

<clown> <A aria-posinset="2" aria-active="true" ... />

<clown> <a aria-posinset="3" ... />

<clown> </div>

brian: how does at know difference between interactive or noninteractive list?
... seeing jfw enter forms mode inappropriately with grid around various interactive elements

matt: discussing that with them
... similar issue with nvda

<clown> something like <div role="grid">

<clown> <div role="row">

<clown> <div role="gridcell">Item 1</div>

<clown> <div role="gridcell">Item 2</div>

<clown> </div>

<clown> </div>

<clown> ?

rs: so what is the proposal?

Rich, it's your call. Should we ask PLH to join for Web Platfoms WAPA for a few minutes

matt: issue is ok, but we need to repurpose or change the 5 actions related to it

<clown> if needed, http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-grid

<plh> [[

<plh> High level User Events

<plh> A specification to enable authors to support user interaction in web applications easily without requiring specific hardware, platform, or input methodologies to be in use.

<plh> ]]

<plh> http://www.w3.org/2015/07/web-platform-wg.html

<clown> Mozilla's proposal: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/WebAccessibilityAPI

<clown> cynthia's WAPA: https://github.com/cyns/wapa

cs: has been proposing work on wapa would go to cg

mc: confirming that handoff from indieui was to web platforms and intended to include wapa
... not sure that preliminary work in a cg is incompatible with that

rs: understood that cg would bet ms, mozilla, others
... aria charter planned on joint tf with web platform
... so am now confused on where it goes
... did understand that end result would come from platforms

cs: also participation interest from google and adobe
... drafting a proposal to be submitted friday or monday
... idea is to get everyone working on script a11y into the same conversation

rs: any concern on this starting in a cg?

plh: no

rs: we have it listed as a tf in the aria proposed charter
... so intended to host 25% tpac time on this -- either monday or tuesday morning

plh: so we have the deliverable in the web platforms charter
... my proposal is that somewhere at tpac that we have the conversation to clarify how we move this forward
... i was concerned adding this because of lack of clarity of staff resources
... cynthia, would a web/aria discussion be helpful?

rs: i think so
... there maybe use cases we don't know

plh: cg doesn't meet at tpac
... organizing cg work during plennary day
... believe wednesday better target for mtg

rs: we will definitely have aria session on this monday or tuesday

plh: if the cg track doesn't happen, please put it on the breakout agenda

rs: cynthia, any response from apple?

cs: no, but haven't asked recently

rs: returning to issue-633

issue-633 redux

fe: support what matt is trying to do. i see this problem all the time
... not sure role grid is intuitive for authoring

rs: could subclass if needed

<mck> A grid MAY also be used as a grouping container for a set of interactive elements. For example, an author MAY present a list of links in a grid so the list becomes a single element in the keyboard tab sequence and the cells within the grid are focusable with arrow key navigation. When using a grid in this way, authors SHOULD include only one interactive element inside of each cell so when...

<mck> ...the cell is focused, the interactive element within the cell is operable.

rs: would prefer new role that subclasses grid

matt: grid description could be radically improved -- no offense, but doesn't read right to me as is

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#grid

rs: people using without a problem

<joanie> +1 to grid needing to be rewritten in the spec

matt: but we do have a lot of confusion, some with at

rs: not seen issue with authors

matt: advantage of not having another role is less testing and simpler implementation
... just want an opportunity to clean up the description of grid
... propose the "read only" adds no value and only brings confusion
... at least so with apg

rs: reason is that people didn't want to put on all cells, and you can use arrows to nav

fe: tree ths same? can use arrows?

rs: yes, but not editable

clown: depends on the tree item

matt: grid has two modes as described in apg, edit and nav

rs: only if cell is editable

fe: is having a "hide" button in the cell make it an editable cell?

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#grid

rs: no

matt: if multiple interactive items in cell, should it be readonly?

rs: no

<Zakim> clown, you wanted to object to the term "editable"

matt: so concept is enter or f2 to enter cell and interact
... so what does readonly buy?
... suggest readonly isn't about the cell, rather it's about the content in the cell
... but inheriting readonly says nothing

clown: no, it says you can't interact

brian: no, would be disabled

matt: believe this is part of why grid seems complicated
... happy to work on making things clearer

clown: is a single column grid?

matt: could be, but could be multi, could wrap

clown: sounds like vertical toolbar

matt: could be vertical or horizontal
... a tile view concept

rs: no objection if matt proposes a better grid description

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Matt Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1724 - Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept [on Matt Garrish - due 2015-09-17].

composite use case

<clown> action-1724

<trackbot> action-1724 -- Matt Garrish to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724

<clown> action-1724?

<trackbot> action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724

<richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: This action is for Matt King and not Matt Garrish

mck: we don't want facebook news a single tab stop!

NOTE: now using mck rather than matt ...

mck: each thingie is an article in these composites
... the composites are a mix of things to read and things to interact with

mcK; most natural to interact in browse mode

mck: thinking about how to make them work with and without a screen reader
... main issue seems to be infinite scroll
... within infinite scroll, moving from item to item, e.g. story to story
... sr's not moving focus
... approach is heavily browser dependent
... everybody is doing it differently and differently for each browser agent
... as one approaches the end, more get added; intro's stability issues
... too many events in the dom, and sr's lose their place
... talked with fs so far, and plan to talk with nvda next week ...
... nobody wants to always move the focus for performance reasons

cs: this is one scenario we want to address in wapa

mck: believe there are simple things to do near term that would be very helpful
... e.g. put the scrolling composite in a region
... and it's justfor articles, e.g. we can have posset, etc
... could clearly set focus on articles

rs: what to call this thing?

mck: thinking of article feed

[discussion about naming]

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#article

rs see no issue with article, things are dynamic today

<clown> "… a web log entry on a site that accepts user-submitted comments could represent the comments as articles …"

mck: and it doesn't necessarily need to be infinite scroll, could be dynamic or static
... want to incorporate aria-busy

rs: it's global
... so need not say anything special about that
... we need scroll to end up in control patterns eventually

mck: think it's a child of landmark

rs: believe this could apply to other widgets

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: MatthewKing Create a proposal for an article feed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'MatthewKing'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: MattKing Create a proposal for an article feed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1725 - Create a proposal for an article feed [on Matthew King - due 2015-09-17].

related actions

1505 already closed

<clown> action-1688

<trackbot> action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for aria-interactive -- due 2015-09-23 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688

mck: see it a duplicate, no distinction , close it

<clown> action-1675

<trackbot> action-1675 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove list as a superclass of menu and listbox -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1675

<clown> action-1676

<trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1676

<clown> action-1677

<trackbot> action-1677 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove input as a superclass of scrollbar and select -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1677

mck: believe the last one is unrelated. don't see it

[jd: explains inheritance discussion and how these ended up related here]

<clown> "Simple is in the eye of the beholder"

rs: any others of these we can close?
... ok next week ...

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/ranging from links/ranging from list of links/
Succeeded: s/close/, close/
Found Scribe: janina
Inferring ScribeNick: janina
Default Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, janina, fesch, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Stefan, Leonie_Watson, Matt_King, Michael_Cooper
Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger janina fesch LJWatson Joanmarie_Diggs Stefan Leonie_Watson Matt_King Michael_Cooper Joseph_Scheuhammer Bryan_Garaventa plh Michiel_Bijl
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0042.html
Found Date: 10 Sep 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 1688 matt matthewking mattking

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