Social Web Working Group Teleconference -- 23 Jun 2015

<trackbot> Date: 23 June 2015

+Sandro

<ben_thatmustbeme> +ben_thatmustbeme

<wilkie> +wilkie

<wilkie> poor Zakim

<rhiaro> awwww Zakim is so lonely

<Loqi> :)

<wilkie> rude, Loqi

<rhiaro> and Loqi is mocking Zakim..

<Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-06-23]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84788&oldid=84771

<ben_thatmustbeme> https://www.webex.com/login/attend-a-meeting

https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m60d8f99fc911f2b6fdbb0650665f22b4

<wilkie> I missed last week's meeting because I forgot how time zones worked. ironically, I was writing social network code.

<jasnell> attempting to join

Hello....??? Three of us on Webex.... Now four

<cwebber2> there's an echo from someone

<cwebber2> I'm on now too

<rhiaro> cwebber what sip software did you use?

<rhiaro> cwebber2

<eprodrom> Well, that's going to be terrible

+Sandro

<eprodrom> +eprodrom

<eprodrom> On the phone

+jasnell

<cwebber2> I didn't get to test SIP this time

<cwebber2> I'm hoping to next time

<cwebber2> I ran out of time

<cwebber2> tsyesika: rhiaro: I'll be interested if you have luck with the SIP stuff

<rhiaro> cwebber2: I have no idea how to connect with sip, every client I tried needs a sip address not a number. I didn't realise.

<wilkie> I can scribe

<eprodrom> Is there anyone who can scribe?

<ben_thatmustbeme> sorry, was afk

<wilkie> that's fine with me!!

<eprodrom> scribenick: sandro

<wilkie> thanks sandro

<eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-06-16-minutes

<jasnell> how many people are actually on the call??

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<jasnell> there appear to be only 6

<cwebber2> +1

<wilkie> +1

<eprodrom> PROPOSAL: approve minutes for 16 June 2015

<ben_thatmustbeme> jasnell: 6, it looks like

<eprodrom> +1

<wilkie> there seems to be a few in irc not on call too

<scribe> scribe: sandro

<cwebber2> rhiaro: :(

<cwebber2> also, I'm looking online for any evidence that there's support for SIP in webex

<cwebber2> I don't see any

jasnell: I created an updated editors draft and publication candidate using the mf2 examples added back in, with a note about accuracy

<tantek> great

jasnell: If they continue to be incorrect/unchecked we should look at removing them in the future, but we can publish like this

<tantek> we need more volunteers to help fix examples!

<harry> thanks jasnell!

ben_thatmustbeme: I have a large pull request queud up with corrections

<wilkie> I've never successfully used SIP ~ever~ and have resorted to using skype, which is a cheap compromise for me

<harry> wilkie, did you try SIP with WebEx?

eprodrom: lets return to the agenda. The question of whether we can meet without certain people seems to have been addressed.
... so we are meeting.

<ben_thatmustbeme> sorry, didn't mean to digress there

<wilkie> no, with the old zakim stuff. could never get it to work.

<wilkie> harry: nope

<eprodrom> RESOLVED: approve minutes of 16 June 2015

eprodrom: Minutes of 16 june approved

<harry> I think W3C SIP is down, so you may want to try WebEx SIP

<harry> I'd be interested if anyone got it working

<cwebber2> harry, *is* there a webex SIP?

<cwebber2> I couldn't find any instructions for connecting to it, if it exists

eprodrom: Any progress on open issues or actions that people want to report?

<tsyesika> i can't find any info on webex sip

<harry> There's the WebEx App, which is basically VoIP

<cwebber2> but that's proprietary

<harry> yes, indeed it is sadly enough.

<cwebber2> sorry

<jasnell> with the commit I made this morning, action-34 can be closed. http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34

<harry> Anyways, there's always @cwebber2 syntax

<cwebber2> @cwebber@irc.w3.org

<harry> It is a good point we should have an open-source/free software SIP, I'll bring that up Systems Team

<cwebber2> harry, thank you!

<harry> ACTION: hhalpin to ask if open-source/free software SIP exists for W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Ask if open-source/free software sip exists for w3c [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-06-30].

jasnell: I posted a commit saying they're non-normative, etc.

<harry> I mean, it's for W3C's WebEx, so it's the organization not Zakim.

<harry> Given Zakim no longer exists :)

fixed

MF2 examples in AS2

jasnell: they're in there but not correct. we're ready to publish.

<tantek> what about ben_thatmustbeme's patch to fix them?

jasnell: second issue is for MD and RDFa examples as well -- they do not necessarily reflect best practice.

<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme, what's the URL of your patch to fix the examples?

jasnell: in MF2, some of the class names are just made up, not what people actually are doing. those all need to be reviewed.

<tantek> for MD and RDFa - just add a warning for those too

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: they are not in yet, but i have a branch for mf2 fixes

<tantek> and a call for practitioners to submit fixes

tantek, he's talking about down the road

<harry> +1 ben_thatmustbeme

eprodrom: jasnell, what's the delta from the previous WG? Is it worth doing a new version?

<harry> We genereally want to publish a new WD every 3 months

jasnell: Yes. That was January. Significant changes in extended vocabulary
... like dropping some object types
... shifting around properties

<Arnaud_> I'm listening with a crippled env

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: https://github.com/dissolve/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/tree/fixmicroformats

<ben_thatmustbeme> current work

<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: is that ready to merge? or how long do you need to make it merge ready?

<rhiaro> I'll help with fixing microformats examples, sorry I didn't get chance to look at it this week

harry: WG's are supposed to publish a WD every three months

<Arnaud_> did you guys recorded attendees?

<eprodrom> ek-KID-na

<tantek> good, so we have at least two more volunteers to help fix microformats examples: rhiaro and ben_thatmustbeme and me makes three

<Arnaud_> has to be done manually now unfortunately

<tantek> so let's close that issue - we have 3 volunteers to fix microformats examples

Arnaud, I don't have any idea how

<harry> So assuming the microformat review is non-controversial, we could resolve to publish next week and then have a new WD out in early July

eprodrom: Can we review this new ED over the next week.

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: not yet, it would not take much, I should be able to get it mergable tonight if I have the time

jasnell: Yes, and I can see about switching to echidna during that time.

<jasnell> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html

<rhiaro> +rhiaro

<jasnell> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html

<cwebber2> sounds good

eprodrom: I'll put the decision on the agenda for next week

(everyone) sounds good

<eprodrom> ben_thatmustbeme, multiple "natural" languages in the AS 2.0?

Multiple Natural Languages in AS2

ben_thatmustbeme: Not sure this is an issue any more...

<melvster> FYI : example from spec:

<melvster> "displayNameMap": {

<melvster> "en": "Martin added a new video to his album.",

<melvster> "ga": "Martin phost le fisean nua a albam."

<melvster> },

ben_thatmustbeme: THe need for multiuple natural languages in a single activity. No user stories include it. No systems I know that use it. I was suggesting removing it.
... I think it's complex enough that I don't know how to solve it.

<tantek> we should drop features from AS2 that have zero presence in any user stories and zero silo equivalent feature implementations

<aaronpk> +1

jasnell: Multi language support is a feature of json-ld. We inherit support even if we don't say anything. This is trying to scope it a bit, to say it's only meaningul in particular cntext
... ADL's XAPI uses it.
... some others do too
... that's AS1

<tantek> we don't inherit support because we don't require consuming code to support JSONLD

jasnell: That said, the use cases for this are fairly specific. I've used it for translation of activities

<tantek> kind of tired of that kind of reasoning

jasnell: I see there are some issues with translation to MF2 and MD, which are more presentation oriented.

<harry> I do think multiple language support is important, the W3C really wants to support internationalization in general

jasnell: I think it's okay that some things don't translate perfectly, but I think it's important to keep it.

<tsyesika> I think being able to express content in multiple languages is important for multilingual people with followers who understand different language(s)

<tsyesika> I would be opposed to removing it

<harry> Now, the details of how it transforms into any non-normative alternative syntax is to me not a big deal.

eprodrom: Is it possible to continue using JSON-LD without this feature

ben_thatmustbeme: We don't have to mention it in the spec. I don't want it to be required.

jasnell: It's already out there, scoped to four fields.

<Arnaud_> we could be silent about it though

jasnell: It's a requirement for consumers, not publishers.
... It's a bit of a pain for non-json-ld, I guess, but not that much.

ben_thatmustbeme: I'm looking for ways to simplify things for WG, reducing test cases, etc.

jasnell: I don't see it as adding much complexity.

<tsyesika> I think the current state of things being able to express things in multiple languages is really useful

jasnell: As far as I'm concerned it doesn't add complexity.

eprodrom: It sounds like we have a use case not yet captured. Is it possible to capture it?

<wilkie> as an implementor, I'd feel rather bad not including support for multiple language posts, and worried that the IG was just biased to miss this use-case

<tantek> as an implementer, I feel bad waiting to ship because someone required features that no one has ever built before

eprodrom: Sounds like there's some use case that maybe just needs to be captured.

tantek, jasnell says it's deployed in products

<wilkie> tantek: oh tantek, you poor over-worked coder :)

<tantek> wilkie - real implementors ship

<tantek> rather than "feel rather bad"

<bblfish> I think Ann Basseti made a case for languages and internationalisation

<jasnell> jsnell

<tsyesika> I am beginging to use this on my implementation, i have seen it used on facebook when before i closed my facebook account

<eprodrom> ACTION jsnell document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in AS 2.0

<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in as 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2015-06-30].

<wilkie> tantek: your passive aggression is on point today!! of course, what is the point if you ship something only people a lot like us can use

<tantek> so there's a new use-case in More User Stories then? URL?

<melvster> FYI: SoLiD apps both produce and consume multi language already .... example: http://live.dbpedia.org/sparql?default-graph-uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org&query=DESCRIBE+%3Chttp://dbpedia.org/resource/Kevin_Marks%3E&output=application%2Fld%2Bjson

<harry> just was going to point out W3C supports internationalization in general, see how multiple language support in past was added to XML, RDF, etc.

<tantek> wilkie - what's the point in current silos who reach billions of people? clearly they must all be "people a lot like us"

<harry> So I'd be worried if this was removed completely.

<harry> We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project

<harry> The City of Helsinki plans to implement some internal social software

Invited Experts

<harry> that will also have some public-facing AS2.0 endpoints

<harry> [looking for other IE]

<wilkie> tantek: you are so concerned with what already exists. besides, twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case.

eprodrom: Sorry for the delay, chairs will deal with it before next week

Social API

<harry> We discussed the API heavily last call

<tantek> wilkie - documentation of "twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case."?

<harry> not sure if there's been any updates since?

<cwebber2> rhiaro might but she isn't able to hear

<tsyesika> for what it's worth http://tsyesika.se/feed I've started manually writing my ActivityPump feed before I have got my software ready, that's using it

<tsyesika> oh we've moved on

<rhiaro> I started putting together this strawman API doc thingy

<Arnaud_> if we were silent on the multilanguage issue it becomes a quality of the implementation rather than a requirement

<tantek> +Tantek

<eprodrom> rhiaro, are you on the call?

tsyesika, rhiaro are you on call?

<tsyesika> i'm not, i couldn't get things working sorry >.<

<eprodrom> Anyone on the call who can give an update

eprodrom: Anyone on call who can give an update

<tsyesika> I'm only able to participate via IRC today

<rhiaro> There's not much to update; I started this: https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md

<tantek> I think the last call / minutes gave a good update

<rhiaro> It's not in particularly useful shape yet

<cwebber2> eprodrom, harry, see above

harry: Last week we talked about folks brainstorming and trying to implement

https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412

https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-APIs-Brainstorming

- Doug?

<rhiaro> I'll work more on this https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md this week, hopefully with help from others :)

<tantek> thanks for the links sandro

harry: We need drafts by next F2F at absolute latest

<bblfish> sorry, did not get around to contribute this week. It's on my list.

shepazu, I'm scribing

<cwebber2> +q

harry: We want people to add to Brainstorming doc

<wilkie> tantek: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172132-tweet-translation not to mention people who have multiple accounts so to have an english account

harry: Then somehow converge it into a spec

<tantek> wilkie++ thanks wilkie - appreciate the reference

<Loqi> wilkie has 15 karma

shepazu, sorry, your name was a paste-o

<harry> shepazu, maybe an update from the Annotations work would be in order if possible?

tantek: Brainstorming document looks good. We need to keep encouraging progress. I'd like to continue down that path, rather than an arbitrary deadline, like 1st draft by tpac.

harry: I'm just trying to remind folks of our charter schedule

tantek: Worst thing is to publish a std prematurely

<melvster> tantek++

<Loqi> tantek has 204 karma

<cwebber2> o/

harry: I agree, but we do need to provide some evidence of progress

<harry> It's not a PR problem, it's a management issue

<cwebber2> hey can I make a comment :P

sandro: The AC has a duty to review what we're doing, it's not a PR question

<harry> Anyways, we are in scope, but we have had lots of groups go off charter and fail to deliver, so we just need to show signs of progress.

<harry> So far, the convergence is good.

jasnell: How is a WD prematurely shipping a spec

tantek: The world considers a WD shipping a spec

<harry> There's differences in philosophy here, the important thing is to be making progress :)

eprodrom: Our current brainstorming document isn't something that can be implemented --- we want to get something closer to implementable

cwebber2: rhiaro is working on building a straw document, micropump.md
... needs help from solid, to be micropumplid.md :-)

<rhiaro> thanks cwebber2. https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md <- this is *not* the same brainstorming doc you've seen before

<bblfish> Sorry again, for not having spent time last week on this document. I am getting towards it.

<bblfish> Hope @sandro can help out too

<rhiaro> bblfish: I started adding a bit of SoLiD into the brainstorming README, I hope that helps

bblfish, I

bblfish, don't count on me for that

cwebber2: I've been doing do experiments in guile/scheme building toward activitypump

<bblfish> sandro why are you on this group?

<bblfish> (just a question)

bblfish, to help it succeed. duh.

<tantek> wait what is going on?

<harry> I'm pretty sure Sandro cares :)

<tantek> I'm very confused

<harry> No one scribes for fun!

<cwebber2> oops I dropped off

<cwebber2> phone crashed

<tantek> I'm VERY confused by this dialog

<tantek> sandro: I'm not a big fan of SoLiD

<tantek> sandro: there's some very complicated things going on there

<tantek> sandro: there are other people who are

<Loqi> sandro has 15 karma

<tantek> sandro: my allegiance is making something that really works well here

<rhiaro> sandro++

<Loqi> sandro has 16 karma

<tantek> henry: so you want to do like LDP, join last 3 months and make a lot of comments and noise?

bblfish, I wrote the LDP charter.

<tantek> evan: we are done with this conversation, if you (henry) want to talk to sandro about participation in this group that's something you can do offline.

<shepazu> bblfish--

<Loqi> bblfish has 10 karma

bblfish--

<Loqi> bblfish has 9 karma

<bblfish> well its worrying if sandro who is in a solid position is undermining solid

<tantek> evan: we do need contributions from people interested in SoLiD contributing to the brainstorming document

<bblfish> not sure if it is woth me fighting this battle alone

bblfish, take that up with Tim

<tantek> evan: we do want to consider it at least in principle

<tantek> evan: for what we will come up with

<harry> For example, I'm still working my head around SoLID as well - and wouldn't comment on it until I have a better understanding

<cwebber2> bblfish, we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time

<tantek> evan: if you want to see SoLiD come out as part of the Social API then it behooves you to participate in this brainstorming

<tantek> evan: if not, then that's fine too

<cwebber2> shepazu, haha

<melvster> i already raised an issue to the doc last week which rhiaro fixed already

<tantek> henry: it's not really interesting, I don't really see the point here

<tantek> henry: trying to fight a battle where most people are trying to go the other way is a complete waste of time

<tantek> henry: if Sandro is fighting against it

<cwebber2> bblfish, this is not productive

I am *not* fighting against it.

<tantek> harry: can we get a quick update from schepers?

<jasnell> thank you for ending that particular conversation

<tantek> evan: let's wrap up this Social API point

<tantek> evan: doug if you are on the call and you don't mind giving us an update

<tantek> schepers: sure

tantek, thanks for scribing. too in shock to scribe.

<bblfish> it is productive for me cwebber2. I just found out that if I participate I'll get no help from Sandro. So I'd just be wasting my time. Unless others want to support me.

<harry> shepazu, have time for a quick update on Annotations? When should look at the draft annotation specs? What's the dependencies?

<tantek> shepazu: we separated our web annotation group into separate areas

<tantek> shepazu: one is data model, given a message, what is the formatting

bblfish, that's ALSO not what I said bblfish

<tantek> shepazu: our default serialization is JSONLD, you can also use turtle, some of us are interested in HTML as well, e.g. using microformats

<tantek> shepazu: somehow mapping the data model to indicators in HTML

<tantek> shepazu: second thing

<tantek> shepazu: the annotation protocol

<tantek> shepazu: this is basically LDP with some bits bolted on

<bblfish> cwebber: > we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time < yes, I am interested in helping but only if I get more support. I am not interested in working for free for nothing.

<tantek> shepazu: main difference is that LDP has a should re: default no accept headers is sent, it should be turtle, we are saying JSONLD instead with a MUST

<rhiaro> bblfish, those of us who are contributing are doing so because we care about a particular technology and working for convergence, all of us 'working for free' currently

<tantek> shepazu: we're about to publish that, the annotation protocol, probably next week, as a first public WD

<tantek> shepazu: the 3rd thing is the range finder API

<ben_thatmustbeme> ditto to rhiaro

<tantek> shepazu: the idea is that given any kind of text

<bblfish> yes, but unless there is a team supporting me, its not helpful to work on something.

<tantek> shepazu: you want to point to a particular section of text

<bblfish> I'd just be downvoted on every important issue

<tantek> shepazu: we made rangefinder API - sort of like a find in page API

<tantek> shepazu: later on there will be a URL syntax that will take advantage of this

<eprodrom> bblfish, sandro please take this discussion out of channel

<tantek> shepazu: this is similar to fragmentions

<eprodrom> https://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention

<tantek> shepazu: it's a way that fragmentions could be re-ified in the browser

<tantek> shepazu: we have other things going on as well

<tantek> shepazu: all of this is geared towards, you can put the pieces together and it will make an annotation client

<tantek> shepazu: I'm trying to understand how AS2 works with this

shepazu: It's a big goal NOT to conflict with what you're doing

<tantek> shepazu: our goal is to not conflict, and to re-use

shepazu: If there's something that can be generalized beyond annotations, that's what we want to do
... We're just trying to put any necessary building blocks in place

eprodrom: You mentiooned the protocol, which sounds like the main overlap. Is there an ED?

<cwebber2> :)

shepazu: ... looking ....

<shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/

eprodrom: This sounds a lot like solid

Social Linked Data

eprodrom: It'd be good compare/contrast
... that looks like a kind of old draft.... maybe the date's wrong?

<cwebber2> thanks shepazu

eprodrom: Please, people try to take a look

<cwebber2> shepazu++

<Loqi> shepazu has 2 karma

<bblfish> I should look at Annotations Protocol. I am sure I'd like to use it.

<ben_thatmustbeme> shepazu++

eprodrom: So I'll take a look at that protocol, and I hope everyone else does, too.

<Loqi> shepazu has 3 karma

<harry> rhiaro, the answer is "no"

<tantek> thank you shepazu for the overview and summary!

eprodrom: AOB?

<cwebber2> thanks for scribing sandro (and tantek for filling in)

<cwebber2> and thanks for chairing eprodrom

<rhiaro> Thanks harry

<cwebber2> sandro++

<cwebber2> tantek++

<Loqi> sandro has 17 karma

<cwebber2> eprodrom++

<Loqi> tantek has 205 karma

<Loqi> eprodrom has 16 karma

ADJOURN

<Arnaud_> ji am on but gotta go

(chairs please stay)

<wilkie> -wilkie

<cwebber2> have fun chairs

<ben_thatmustbeme> -ben_thatmustbeme

<Arnaud_> you can go ahdad without me

<ben_thatmustbeme> sandro, as moderator you can kick those that are still on too

ben_thatmustbeme, harry's the moderator of this call right now.

<bblfish> sandro--

<Loqi> too much karma!

<shepazu> sandro++

<harry> no worries, we are just going through IE stuff

<Loqi> Eprodrom made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-06-30]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84796&oldid=0

<bblfish> rhiaro the problem is not working for free, the problem is "working for nothing"

<bblfish> ie: for no result.

<rhiaro> bblfish: What is the result you prefer?

<rhiaro> It sounds like you're worried about people arbitrarily ignoring your contributions

<rhiaro> For me, and others, the result we want is interoperable decentralised social web systems, one way or another. Not the elevation of a particular technology.

<wilkie> I appreciate everybody's contributions!

<rhiaro> We want to make something work; nobody is going to ignore good contributions for no reason

<rhiaro> thanks wilkie :)

<tantek> wilkie - I've said it before and I'll say it again, really glad you are here and for all your contributions.

<tantek> in code and in IRC

<wilkie> awwww :')

<Loqi> cute!

<wilkie> same for you!!

<wilkie> much <3 to the room

<bblfish> Look as sandro and Harry said its a question of how one invests one's time. If Sandro and Arnaud are not here interested in working on this document, and Tantek says its not really important that anything be ready by next F2F, then one has to consider the possibility that the work they have given you is just a political game to make people do something that the group does not really want to invest in. Now I can invest my time just doing SoLiD o

<bblfish> r working with a group that does not really want to work together. So I am happy to find how these things can work together, but without support I am not sure how much time I should put into this. Sandro thinks any time put into this document is too much of his time.

<bblfish> I mean I can also sit back and agree with "whatever consensus the working group comes to".

<harry> Lots of people in this group are working together productively, but everyone has time constraints. I would try to be more polite next time and have these kinds of conversations in private.

<bblfish> Look sandro wrote above: "sandro: bblfish, don't count on me for that"

<bblfish> ( for helping out on the document )

<bblfish> he said that publically

<bblfish> and this is not the first time

<rhiaro> bblfish: Nobody is demanding you help out. If you don't have time, just say so as others have. You can still follow the group without working on the spec

<rhiaro> We just have a general call for help with SoLiD, it doesn't matter particularly *who* helps

<bblfish> rhiaro: yes, I understand. I am trying to find others who back supporting that document, that is who are willing to invest time in it.

<melvster> harry: what happens if the working draft isnt ready by the F2F?

<harry> The AC may ask what precisely the WG is doing with its time

<melvster> harry: who's the AC? I presume AS2 is a deliverable that's on track still?

<harry> At W3C, we're starting to move to close groups that aren't productive.

<harry> Melvin, please read about the W3C.

<melvster> harry: thanks, will do. Sorry to take up your time.

<harry> the process is exceedingly well documented in the W3C process doc

<melvster> harry: ah I by AC you mean advisory committee, well imho AS2 is looking good, independent of the other deliverables

<melvster> rhiaro: thanks for adding the SoLiD sections to the brainstorming doc

- DRAFT -

Social Web Working Group Teleconference

23 Jun 2015

Attendees

Contents

MF2 examples in AS2

Multiple Natural Languages in AS2

Invited Experts

Social API

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output