Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference -- 05 Jun 2015

<trackbot> Date: 05 June 2015

<scribe> scribe: Howard

Quickstart tips

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/index.html

<shawn> survey results https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/eowg1june2015/results

Kevin: looks like direction we're going in for titles is good. If everyone is happy, I'm happy.

Shawn: what do you think of my suggestions in the survey?

<shawn> title/<h1>Designing for Web Accessibility: Tips for Getting Started</h1>

the overview would stay the same as drafted

<shawn> Conceptually, the content of the individual tips page is:

<shawn> * Tips for Getting Started Designing for Web Accessibility (specifically for user interface and visual design)

<shawn> * Tips for Getting Started Developing for Web Accessibility (specifically for markup and coding)

<shawn> * etc.

<shawn> title/<h1>Designing for Web Accessibility: Tips for Getting Started</h1>

Shawn: only con to approach is that details like tips for mark up and coding isn't in the main title

but only 2 of the topics provide that additional information.

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to say that is fine although depends on introduction

Kevin: happy with Shawn's approach. Perhaps a little too much text in the h1 for my liking.

Important that key words are front loaded.

<yatil> +1

Shawn: feedback

Howard: -1

<paulschantz> +1

<shawn> Howard: Think title/header longer. cuts down on scanning & quick reading of it.

<shawn> ... understand need to brand the page in some way. thought issue addressed better with box at right

<paulschantz> I amend my +1 to a +0.5

Shawn: my concern not so much branding but clarity of information.

Tips for getting started with accessibility - if that is just in box at right. My concern is that the H1

does not say anything about "tips" or "getting started"

<jon> +1 to Howard

Someone with a screenreader or enlarger won't see that "getting started" cue. Important to see "tips for getting started in the h1"

<shawn> Howard: title now has "quick Start Tips". true screen mag user miss that. hadn't thought about that.

<shawn> ... spomething in banner that's close the the H1 that screen mag

Shawn: that was my original thought but as Kevin and I discussed I changed to current suggestion.

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say throw-away on reread

Eric: Having “: Tips for Getting Started” is a good solution. H1 should describe the content of the site.

If you decide to reread the page, you can stop at the colon. I think it's a pretty nice solution. Doesn't create a lot of different markup.

Jon: I think Shawn's suggestion makes the H1 a little too long. I like the conciseness of it currently.

Other ways of handling this issue for the screenreader.

Kevin: H1 is only "Designing for web accessibility". Doesn't include the other text, which is a paragraph.

Find the "Tips for Getting Started" as part of the heading clashing a bit with the similar text in the box at the right.

Might be other solutions for screenreader and low vision users.

Shawn: title and h1 should communicate what's in the page

Feel it's important to have the title in the H1 to communicate that.

Kevin: get that and comfortable exploring that.

Jon: Way I'm looking at the page, "Designing for Web Accessibility" is what the page is about.

I think that "Designing for Web Accessibility" is very concise.

Shawn: boils down to how important "Tips for getting started" in the heading. People often skip intro paragraphs.

Jon: wouldn't the title of the page carry that over?

Shawn: most people would not see the title.

<shawn> Jon: happy with exploring it

<shawn> Howard: don't agree, but OK to explore it.

Jon: wouldn't screenreaders catch that?

Shawn: Next issue: banner

<shawn> banner https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/eowg1june2015/results#xbanner

Shawn: this came from an idea Howard had last week. In the survey looks like

there were preferences for the box.

Shawn: one of challenges for Kevin is to consider how the box works if we change the H1.

<shawn> Howard:

Howard: liked the red color for the font title on the box - more eye catching.

Kevin: styling not written in stone yet - was playing around with it.

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say that I like the more muted style

Eric: likes the more muting styling. Shouldn't be too attention grabbing.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say agree and maybe smaller text

<jon> +1 to Eric no additional comment

Shawn: agree to make it even quieter eg less bold maybe smaller heading text (the font styling on the box at right)

Kevin: not fixed on styling - whatever works as a device. If it's decided it needs to be quieter, ok.

<shawn> intro paragraph https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/eowg1june2015/results#xintroP

<shawn> Howard: ok

Kevin: is the current intro tersified for you?

Shawn: No, I think it's redundant.

Needs to be tersified more.

Kevin: not overly tied to what's there. This is just a start.

Shawn: feel like what's there is overly wordy.

Kevin: will have a look at it and also will play around with H1s and subtitles and see how it might all work together.

Shawn: any other comments on intro?

<shawn> overview page: http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/

Shawn: Look at Howard's comment on "developing" and "designing" being next to each other.
... Howard felt words were similarly shaped and shouldn't be next to each other.

Kevin: Order of these items somewhat arbitrary. Designing and Dev'l came first but no reason they have to be next to each other.

Shawn: open up for discussion - what are general feelings for this layout (instead of a list)?

<shawn> sub-topic: layout

Paul: nice that it's a change from the list. Nice to be different.

<Brent> I like this layout better than the list. List just seems perscriptive to me

<yatil> like it

<jon> i like the current format

Shawn: in terms of order, is there benefit to having most common ones first. What might we do regarding placement?

Paul: Okay with putting "writing" between "Designing" & "dev'l". Would put designing first.

Shawn: any other input on order?
... Kevin, please put notes on any decision you decide.

Kevin: will put issues in GitHub.

Shawn: probably don't want alphabetical.

<shawn> icons https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/eowg1june2015/results#xq4

Shawn: Idea was to have icons for the overview page.

<Zakim> jon, you wanted to clarify my answer

Jon: I'm huge proponent of iconography. Currently, too text heavy.

Happy to create images but not with coming up with what they should be.

Shawn: Anna Belle liked iconography but she's on leave.
... So okay with leaving the idea of icons open but need to decide who will address it.

Jon: maybe he, Howard and Brent could discuss icons offline.

Shawn: probably best to do it online.

<jon> Howard: +100 Brent

Brent: would go further with icons - once you learn icons, it's the quickest recognition tool.

Assume when you put the icon on the overview page will carry over to tips page.

Does the W3C need to create it's own icons or is here a catalogue we can pull from. Would be happy to pull from an icon.

Shawn: don't have a catalogue of resources right now but Jon and Anna Bellelike to create these.

We can start with creative commons and then have Jon and Anna Bellefill in any holes.

Kevin: might be beneficial to see how icons might work - not the selection - but how it goes in there.

Shawn: might be good but not a a top priority.
... option might be to open up a page in GitHub or a wikipage.

Jon: open to a GitHub page but willing to do Wiki.

Brent: okay with Wiki, don't know GitHub.

<shawn> ACTION: Eric & Sharron & others schedule github training [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> 'Eric' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., eeggert, evellema).

Shawn: still need to have a GitHub session.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE & Sharron & others schedule github training [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-309 - & sharron & others schedule github training [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Shawn: Kevin, would you create an issue on GitHub and explicitly send it to the list.

<Brent> Can Kevin give us some specs on iconography? size requirements, color requirements, file type...

<jon> There's some people I can ask immediately, so I'll reach out to them today.

<jon> *for help on Github

Brent, Jon, if you try to use GitHub and not working, feel free to get started with Wiki.

Shawn: Kevin, any other questions you have for today?

Kevin: No, feedback has been very helpful.

work for next week (or this weekend)

<shawn> Tips - Review the tips text (not the explanations underneath the tips yet) thoroughly for what we might want to Add, Delete, or Edit to be worded more clearly and succinctly; and complete the EOWG Survey on Tips Refinement

Shawn: next steps on this: several people have contributed to the text - thank you.

Want to finalize what tips themselves should be and Kevin will refine

the explanations and examples. Need everyone to review the topic areas thoroughly.

Are there any we might want to add or delete? Do we want to suggest any edits for clearness and succinctness.

Then a survey to report what you've done on that. Any questions?

<shawn> survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EOWGTipsJune1/

Quickref redesign

<shawn> Mock-up: All on left side bar http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/?hide=filters&hide=overview

<shawn> Mock-up: Tags/Filters on right side bar http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/alternative.html

Shawn: EricE has been looking at different markups based on Austin feedback.

really like first mockup

<paulschantz> +1 to left side mockup

<shawn> Howard: like left side. see everything right away.

<paulschantz> tags box is so much cleaner

<shawn> ... tags got lost on right side mockup for me

Howard: preferred left side mockup

Jon: Question you're looking for?

Shawn: first reactions?

<paulschantz> a lot less "busy"

Jon: way cleaner. Not terribly thrilled with border break with 2 spaces.

<paulschantz> ...and that's a good thing

Jon: Notices that when you're scrolling down on the left hand side it follows you.
... If click on something too many things are highlighted.
... maybe make highlight color a different color.
... Background color on left hand info is a little too gray.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to revise navigation highlighting. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-310 - Revise navigation highlighting. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Might help for more margin on left hand nav and main content.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to revise page background. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-311 - Revise page background. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Brent: expand/collapse clunky.
... on left side - looking at 1.2.4, 1.2 - 1.9 become navigable. But if
... I try to click on 1.3, I can't.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to fix the overview navigation bug. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-312 - Fix the overview navigation bug. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Brent: When completed, will everything be navigable. If I want to go understandable, can I click on left
... navigation to do this or will I need to scroll down.

EricE: Yes, that will work Not sure why it broke on change

Brent: prefer everything on the left side. When you jump to

<shawn> +1 to strong division between SC

<shawn> +1 to stronger division between SC

Brent: 1.2, .5 etc. Once you get used to all the information showing, okay. Wonder if line between success criteria should be thicker.
... Some separation lines between subitems and not between others.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to fix separator line between Success Criteria. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-313 - Fix separator line between success criteria. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask about all left nav not scrolling

Paul: much cleaner now. Also likes everything on left.

Kevin: raise a question: when scrolling down on left navigation. No way to scroll on navigation. Is that a feature?

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to make the Navigation scrollable. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-314 - Make the navigation scrollable. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Kevin: EricE will make the navigation scrollable.
... to EricE: what other changes are you trying to achieve with this new version. What feedback are you
... responding to? Looks similar in structure to previous mockup.

EricE: I think thing we identified the most it that people didn't know their way around.
... I thought about the text and the tagging.
... Two approaches to things I heard. Hopefully tags addresses this.
... Will look through feedback again.

<shawn> [ shawn just scrolled to top and thought wish there was a back to top.... then remembered there is. I still think it needs more visual separation :-]

Shawn: needs more visual separation - "back to top"

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say AFTER others have commented and to say clutter left. top. and to sak how tags might work and to say tags minimize, too and to ask search

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to add more visual bling to the “back to top” link. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-315 - Add more visual bling to the “back to top” link. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

<shawn> [ shawn w/o chair hat on ]

Shawn: Without chair hat: Although I wish they wouldn't, I think many people will turn off Level AAA. That may be the most common customization, so probably Level shouldn't be at the end.

Shawn: Right now you have filters & techniques show/hide but not tags. Will that be added (the show/hide feature)?

<kevin> +1 for Level turn off

<jon> I agree.

EricE: haven't decided. Think people will want the tag information/option.

<jon> *I agree with Shawn that people will shut off Triple A

Shawn: noticed this mockup doesn't have search. Will that be added?

EricE: don't know if it's worthwhile to have search. Search seemed to be confusing to people.
... would be useful to bet more user feedback on this that we're planning.

Shawn: my personal feeling was that search was too complex. however in EOWG survey, there was support for it
... Most people can just do cntl-F to find.

<shawn> Howard: User feedback, people confused by way the search worked. I'm a big advocate of having saerch

<shawn> ... wanted it to work like a standard seach

EricE: I don't know if it's worth it to clutter the interface with the page. Might be able to simplify the search.
... could have search as button on left column. Could use it if they want or not.

Brent: as far as search functionality, people say you can use the browser search.

What I liked about previous search filter, it would say "6 of 21 showing". If had

scribe: filter running it would still show the information not on the screen.

EricE: some people didn't expect it to work that way.

Shawn: personally, preferred the layout with the filters on the right. Prefers the left side cleaner.
... Minor point: expand/collapse icons don't work. Should fix before usability testing.

<yatil> Actions: EricE to take a look at the expand/collapse icons.

Shawn: Would encourage that we have both versions for usability testing. Alternate between which version people see first.

<Brent> I understand your perspective, but I still prefer everything on the left. On one side

<shawn> Howard: can see customize & filters on right. but like tags and overview onm left

<kevin> +1 to Howard

Shawn: expand/collapse, arrows don't make as much sense as they did before.
... Like the heading being at the top instead of the overview - not a major thing.
... EricE, can you say how you see the tags working?

EricE: Thinking of 2 different possibilities for the tags - either hide or show very faint success criteria not applicable to that tag.
... show the SC applicable to that tag. For eg. if select contrast, everything would fade
... but items related to contrast.

Shawn: think it's vital that if things are hidden we make that clear.

EricE: if open filter level and make selection, that happens immediately.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to make clear when the main view updates [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-316 - Make clear when the main view updates [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to show filtered items. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-317 - Show filtered items. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Shawn: any other questions/suggestions?

Brent: if person is searching for something and get to area they like, for eg. meaningful sequence.
... is there any reason someone would want to print that little section.
... or this more of a guide for them to find success criteria and other related info?
... With eval tool, want to print things for manager.

EricE: there will be a print option but will be a challenge to do that without messing
... up the layout. Don't know if it will be possible to print one small section. Would need
... to figure that out.

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to explore printing possibilities for specific pieces of content. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-318 - Explore printing possibilities for specific pieces of content. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Brent: one of things don't have implement is share.

<shawn> [/me not like the future links tech italics ]

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to implement share link. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-319 - Implement share link. [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

<yatil> ACTION: EricE to remove italics from future links for shawn ;-) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-eo-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-320 - Remove italics from future links for shawn ;-) [on Eric Eggert - due 2015-06-12].

Brent: Is there a way for me to share specific info ala the same filtering, etc., if wanted to pass onto a
... developer?

EricE: yes, we will have that.
... usability testing will be Tuesday in 2 weeks.
... will try to send out a new version on Wednesday.

Shawn: survey on quicktips is out now.

<jon> Bye everyone!

- DRAFT -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

05 Jun 2015

Attendees

Contents

Quickstart tips

work for next week (or this weekend)

Quickref redesign

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output