See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 07 May 2015
<shepazu> heycam, can't make the telcon today, but +1 on making SVG case-insensitive https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015May/0010.html
<shepazu> maybe we could even define a lightweight syntax/parser for it
<heycam> shepazu, thanks. can you respond on https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/Linkoping2015 when you get a chance.
<shepazu> heycam, will do
<shepazu> heycam, probably can't make it :(
<TabAtkins> I can call in. One sec.
<scribe> scribe: nikos_
<scribe> scribe: Nikos
<scribe> scribenick: nikos_
TabAtkins: dealing with matching
SVG elements and attributes case sensitively in selectors
... is annoying in our code and we do it wrong in blink
... we currently always lowercsae it
... which makes it impossible to select an svg element that
uses camel case
... had someone try to plumb the code - works but it's
nasty
... instead we committed a patch that always matches case
insensitively
... not sure of the exact details how that works
... so can we make that official in the spec?
... Doug added that we just always lowercase
... at least when included in HTML
heycam: what does the spec say about query selector?
TabAtkins: selectors by default
will be case sensitive but individual host languages can
specify that matching should be done case insensitively
... HTML does this
... SVG does not currently
heycam: what is it that makes general style sheets work to match mixed case names?
TabAtkins: most aren't camel case
so they work - the few that are don't have many properties that
can be played with
... it's only that it can't select by tag name or attribute
name - class works fine
heycam: so in Blink yo ucouldn't select clipPath element by name?
TabAtkins: yes
heycam: so the patch that landed implements what you're suggesting?
TabAtkins: I think so - everything matches case insensitively in SVG
heycam: any idea what other implementations do?
TabAtkins: I believe FF matches
correctly
... not sure how they handle if you do a selector with an
upercase D, how it matches a HTML element with a lower case
d
Tav: so this only affects HTML and not xHTML?
TabAtkins: Either way is
possible
... we could do it just for SVG in HTML
... or for SVG ENTIRELY
heycam: I would like there to be a way to select these elements in XML
shepazu: we talked in the past about making a lightweight serialisation/parsing thing for svg
<TabAtkins> XML5
shepazu: dom based rather than syntax based
<TabAtkins> annevk has worked on that for a while
shepazu: HTML has all these rules
for backwards compat - we wouldn't need to do all that sort of
stuff because SVG has always been well formed
... is there any political will towards doing that as a general
solution?
TabAtkins: We could make that opt
in
... stand alone SVGs need a doctype for example - and opt in to
the HTML like parsing
... but a standard XML declaration would use a standard XML
parser
<TabAtkins> Like <!doctype svg>
shepazu: I'm allergic to
doctype
... recognise they're neccessary in HTML
<ed_work> in theory a specialized svg parser mode could filter out/throw away all textnodes that don't apply, they seldom make sense for svg
shepazu: but would prefer to avoid them for SVG
AmeliaBR: HTML has two syntaxes,
parsed as HTML or parsed as XML. I don't see anything wrong
with doing the same thing for SVG - to say this can be parsed
as an XML document or it can be parsed using an HTML or HTML
like parser that is case insensitive
... but don't forget that it's not just HTML vs stand alone -
there's other situations for SVG
... as long as we say which parser can be used
... and how it would filter down to other DOM methods - and
whether it would create headaches with createElementNS,
etc
... would we need two versions of that function?
shepazu: we don't control a lot
of xml pipeline stuff
... tools are often quite old
... think people will be resistant to changing parsing of these
tools
... I'm not so interested in solving that use case - for them
it will always be case sensitive
... I am interested in the DOM methods - which we control
... assuming browsers are on board
... we can say 'from now on, DOM methods are case
insensitive'
heycam: earlier you asked if the
group is amenable to a HTML like parser for SVG
... I think we are - think we're at the point where someone
needs to write down a proposal for how it would work
... would be happy to start small - selectors in general,
etc
... think the general parsing issue will be a larger think to
solve
shepazu: I also want to make sure
that authoring tools have a clear path forward with this
... specifically ones that are updated such as InkScape and
Illustrator
... I propose that we accept this notion pending some sort of
actionable spec and definition that we can agree on
... and find someone to take the action
TabAtkins: yes, and I can take the action
Tav: I want to make sure the XML
part is maintained to some extent
... in InkScape we use a lot of namespaces
TabAtkins: I expect it will be like HTML where we have the current syntax and the more permssive syntax
heycam: I would like to resolve today how querySelector works in current documents
TabAtkins: I propose: selectors in general are case insensitive for SVG elements, just like they are for HTML elements
shepazu: agree
<ed_work> +1
shepazu: not just querySelector, but anything that uses selectors
TabAtkins: I'll drive it forward
RESOLUTION:
selectors in general will match SVG attributes and elements
case insensitively
... We will work on a method for parsing SVG documents using
case insensitive syntax like HTML - with all this would
entail
heycam: last time we finished
embedded content chapter discussions
... not sure which others needed discussion?
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/render.html#PaintingRasterImages
nikos: Not sure who added this issue - do people think there is something we should say with respect to animated bitmap images? Or can we drop the issue?
heycam: does the HTML spec say
what happens with animated raster images?
... if it mentions it at all that might give some ideas -
otherwise could perhaps drop it
... maybe a requirement that we don't need to render the
animation
ed_work: I'm not sure we require running the animation (or if we require support for any image formats that are animated)
<AmeliaBR> HTML text on the subject: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/rendering.html#images
heycam: I don't remember seeing it
<AmeliaBR> "All animated images with the same absolute URL and the same image data are expected to be rendered synchronized to the same timeline as a group, with the timeline starting at the time of the most recent addition to the group."
AmeliaBR: there's one sentence in
HTML that says that if you have multiple copies of the same
animated image then they should be synchronised
... I think anytime you add a copy you reset the
synchronisation
... we could reference that and encourage the same
behaviour
but probably don't want to add additional rules regarding controlling timelines
scribe: but we probably don't want that to be SVG specific
heycam: agree we shouldn't have
specific requirements
... so do we need to say anything in our spec?
... or is referencing HTML enough?
AmeliaBR: we could just reference the HTML spec
heycam: I'm assuming the sentence
in the HTML spec is about html image elements
... there's a big section about how to handle image elments in
html
... e.g. what happens to sizing, and if it has an alt
attribute
... not sure how many requirements are applicable to svg
Smailus: only concern I have is
to clarify that raster content in SVG is treated the same as
raster content in HTML
... it's different in current browsers
... we're having an issue with down sampling
... it's being done cheaply in SVG
... whereas in HTML we are getting a much higher quality
result
... lines dissapear out of two colour TIFFs, etc
heycam: I suspect the definition
of image-rendering
... which should apply to HTML and SVG images
... should mean that the same things happen
... I would be fine saying here or in image-rendering, to say
the intention is for the sampling should be the same between
HTML and SVG
<ed_work> require the same image formats to be supported too?
<ed_work> (as in html)
<scribe> ACTION: Nikos to look at definitions for image in HTML and see what applies to SVG as well - reference HTML spec from SVG where appropriate [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3788 - Look at definitions for image in html and see what applies to svg as well - reference html spec from svg where appropriate [on Nikos Andronikos - due 2015-05-14].
AmeliaBR: these have been
lingering on the agenda for a while
... issue 2 isn't one of mine - we have informal definitions
that should be moved to formal definitions - not sure who could
talk about that one
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue2
ed_work: I don't mind taking the
action - but would be happy if someone else could
... I think it's probably pretty clear what the terms mean
botie:
<botie> nikos_: sorry...
BogdanBrinza_: would probably make sense for me to take hte action
<scribe> ACTION: Bogdan to resolve ISSUE 2 in linking chapter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3789 - Resolve issue 2 in linking chapter [on Bogdan Brinza - due 2015-05-14].
BogdanBrinza_: I'm not sure these chapters were reviewed - so we may have more to do
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue5
AmeliaBR: target media fragments
have a way of saying whether units are pixels or
percentages
... assume they map to viewbox units and viewbox w/h
... anyone have other ideas?
heycam: I don't have any
opinion
... but as part of last weeks action to look at how implemented
media fragments are, maybe I should think about this at the
same time
... I'll do testing as part of that
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to resolve issue 5 in linking chapter as part of work on other media fragment actions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3790 - Resolve issue 5 in linking chapter as part of work on other media fragment actions [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-14].
<heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue7
AmeliaBR: we've got an option of setting a transform on an SVG view target fragment
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue7
AmeliaBR: and it's a bit
complicated how this maps to CSS transforms
... currently browsers differ
... wrt transform origin on the svg
... no way to specify a different origin
... my question is: should we expand it to any possible css
transform property?
... or should we keep it simple"?
... I lean to keeping it simple
heycam: I feel like this syntax is a bit of a niche feature - and not too keen on expanding with transform origin or that sort of thing
AmeliaBR: so should we deprecate
the idea of using transformations on an svg view?
... think your plan of what to do with parameters is a good way
of solving generally, how to control the rendering from
outside
... but we don't quite have that yet
... so not sure we should deprecate it yet
... I like that idea
... with a better syntax in future we might be able to get rid
of this - but don't break it yet
heycam: part of the issue is that
different implementations use a different transform
origin
... so that behaviour should be nailed down
AmeliaBR: it's whether you treat
the root svg as an element with a css layout box
... may have been fixed, but last I tested browsers had that
behaviour
heycam: have you written text? or can you?
s/writtten text/written tests
AmeliaBR: we'd be asking the CSS transform spec for a clarification - or we could add clarifications that 'the root element of an svg document is an element with a layout box for purposes of the css spec'
heycam: transforms spec has something that says the value of transform origin is (0,0) for something that doesn't have a layout box
AmeliaBR: that wording is so
inline svg in html tranfsorms like any other css layout
box
... but child content transforms like svg transforms
heycam: then idea of clarifying sentence in our spec is good
AmeliaBR: do we want resolution
on transforms on root svg element?
... because that would change the behaviour of SVG on the
canvas
heycam: I want it to be what implementations do currently
AmeliaBR: I'll come up with some
text options and summary of behaviour
... for other issues I think we agree that view in a target
fragment should behave the same as on the svg root element - we
debated previously whether the transform should accumulate or
replace the transform
... we tentatively resolved that it should accumulate
... and I started looking to see how much of a mess that would
be
heycam: is that captured by one of the issues here?
AmeliaBR: issue 6
... not specifically, but it's related
heycam: what's the next step there?
<AmeliaBR> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Mar/0017.html
AmeliaBR: that's my list of test cases and current behaviour
heycam: I'll need to read the email
AmeliaBR: we can talk about this
next week maybe
... my preference for 'whats the transform origin of the
canvas'? Treat the root element as the layout box
... everyone except FF implements that
... maybe IE doesn't implement at all
... I would recommend any svg view transform replaces transform
on the root element
... nobody quite implements that in a consistent way
... FF only replaces transform attribute, not transform
style
<ed_work> note that I have landed some patches a while back in blink that may have affected this (so, might be good to test in a canary build)
heycam: no consistency might be
good as we can choose best behaviour
... I'll read through the emails ready for next week
AmeliaBR: there are some issues
with escaping - I would like to rewrite this to be more
consistent with browsers
... specifically that browsers should respect url escape
notation
... but in many cases browsers let you treat spaces as
spaces
heycam: probably that section should just be informative
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue8
AmeliaBR: problem is browsers
don't decode the url encoding in the target fragment - or at
least only some do
... we can definitely remove where it says 'don't use
spaces'
... think it makes sense t orequire them to decode the url
encoding
heycam: not sure about that - I
want to do some reading
... I feel like at the time you're looking at the url here - in
terms of parsing the view -
<AmeliaBR> Can we get feedback from implementations? Anyone want to look in the code and see how it works?
heycam: I agree that if we can
turn this into a realistic informative statement about how to
write things in the url so it's interpreted correctly, then I'm
happy with that
... I can look into what FF is doing and get back to you
AmeliaBR: I did have a test
case
... I'll send it out again
... only other issue in that chapter, re viewTarget, Cam was
going to follow up with CSS group
... it's issue 12
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue12
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/linking.html#issue12
heycam: we can follow up linking issues next week and go through issues in the appendices
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/elements in HTML/elements in XML/ Succeeded: s/of that element/of that function/ Succeeded: s/AmeliaBR: I don't/AmeliaBR: HTML has two syntaxes, parsed as HTML or parsed as XML. I don't/ Succeeded: s/running the animation/running the animation (or if we require support for any image formats that are animated)/ Succeeded: s/same animated issue/same animated image/ FAILED: s/writtten text/written tests/ Succeeded: s/my preference is/my preference for/ Succeeded: s/we can def say/we can definitely remove where it says/ Succeeded: s/that chapter/that chapter, re viewTarget/ Found Scribe: nikos_ Inferring ScribeNick: nikos_ Found Scribe: Nikos Found ScribeNick: nikos_ Scribes: nikos_, Nikos WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AmeliaBR BogdanBrinza BogdanBrinza_ Doug IPcaller Microsoft P2 P3 P5 P6 P8 Smailus TabAtkins Tav Thomas_Smailus botie ed_work fantasai heycam https jdaggett joined nikos nikos_ scribenick shepazu stakagi stakagi_ svg trackbot You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Regrets: Brian Doug Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015May/0003.html Found Date: 07 May 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-svg-minutes.html People with action items: bogdan cameron nikos[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]