See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 28 April 2015
<scribe> scribe: timeless
jeff: in the draft ac memo that
SteveZ sent
... to a non public list
... no mention was made of a formal objection
SteveZ: i was unclear whether a formal objection was formally delivered,
chaals: in all likelihood, there will be a formal objection when there is a formal review
jeff: the question is whether there should be a reference to it in the letter starting the final review
chaals: that seems like the logical thing to do
mike: i think it's useful information to the voters
SteveZ: i can point to the message that chaals sent indicating the objection
jeff: we need to have the url to
the document in the memo to the AC
... is the final one we're sending to the AC, the one we sent
to the AB on the 24th of April?
SteveZ: last time we created a
Proposed Process Document (possibly Ralph did it?)
... it was located somewhere else
jeff: last time we said the
editor was chaals and the previous editor was IanJ
... do we leave it that way?
chaals: i think we leave it that
way
... the general convention is to give credit to people who in
the past have been editing
SteveZ: the document that went out for review was in /TR/ space
chaals: if you want it in dated space, then you need a Staff member to do that
SteveZ: someone also has to create the WBS (survey)
<glazou> sorry for being late
SteveZ: last time the document had gone out for LC review, i didn't include that either, i can include it
jeff: i need to know what i'm
doing, and what you're doing
... i'm getting on a plane tomorrow morning
SteveZ: it seems like koalie sends it out
jeff: do we need to include the DoC pointer here?
SteveZ: i don't know
... there wasn't one in the one that went out for 2014
jeff: fair enough
SteveZ: i'll update it w/ the two
changes (ref to formal objection, + ref to LC review)
... i'll send it to the TF first, so someone w/ a comment can
send it quickly
... creating a document in dated space, and sending an
announcement are the things to do
jeff: i can take care of the Team
things
... you can tell me what you want to put in the actual memo
SteveZ: the 2014 announcement had
a pointer to the document, a statement about changes, a WBS,
and a deadline
... we should decide on the deadline...
... 4 weeks, right?
chaals: this is a formal AC review, it gets 4 weeks
jeff: it would be worthwhile to state there will be an opportunity for questions/discussion at the AC meeting
SteveZ: i can do those things,
and send it to you (+TF)
... the only difference w/ what i sent to jeff,
... i included a summary of the changes -- from chaals 's
document
... structural changes, major changes
jeff: did we fix the Errata thing?
SteveZ: yep
jeff: which change is that?
SteveZ: it's in chaals 's
list
... under editorial changes, clarify language of 7.7.1 to
encourage groups to be responsive
jeff: didn't we also provide some mechanism so Errata didn't have to be on a separate page?
SteveZ: chaals listed it in his changes as an editorial change
jeff: i thought it was important
timeless: +1
jeff: it doesn't just clarify the language, it allows for a different approach
SteveZ: i'll fix that too
... those are the major changes, i think that's all that we
need to discuss on the document
SteveZ: i don't think there are any actions to review
<inserted> Thanks to Process TF for work on Process 2015
SteveZ: so
<jeff> SteveZ+++
<jeff> Chaals+++
<jeff> Timeless+++
SteveZ: i wanted to formally express my thanks for all of you who helped put the document together
<jeff> Mike+++
SteveZ: and i know that Josh wasn't at the AB meeting
<jeff> Everyone else+++
SteveZ: so i wanted to thank you
as well
... for helping make this possible
SteveZ: having CGs have a better
documented role in creating Docs/Charters
... what kinds of guarantees/rights do CG members have?
... i think Mike said don't add any
... we don't necessarily need to fix that now, but i think we
should raise that to the AC audience
... there was a separate discussion on the Process vs. the
Guide
... to me, the Process is as short as possible for Rules/Rights
-- who participates, how, how work gets done, what's guaranteed
to them
... everything else can go in the Guide
... i think there was agreement on the ML that
... something like the Guide would be useful
... ArtB suggested transferring the Guide to github
<jeff> W3C's community's reaction to the discussion of the Guide --> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/117552201652
SteveZ: i proposed a Wiki because i like the way Wikipedia works
<glazou> ,:-)
SteveZ: I guess github works
similarly, that you can get notification on changes to a
section
... i'd be interested in whether people think it's
practical/good
mike: it's kind of a necessity
that whatever this is called, that it isn't maintained by the
Team
... it's a community effort
... how this is developed should be a template for how things
develop at W3C
... it seems Github is the more powerful/futureproof way than
Wiki
... as for where it's administered from
... if we're talking about a Template for the Future
... covering CGs and getting Reviews before it goes off for
Approval
... more and more work is being done in Github
... people contribute Pull Requests (PRs) with their
suggestions
... my hypothesis is that it will be more productive than doing
things on MLs
... and appointing an Editor to come up w/ words
... i'd vote for... i don't care what CG is nominally
administering it
... as long as it's crowd-sourced and the best ideas get
traction
SteveZ: there are some
complications
... implementing some of these things requires the Systems Team
and Communications provide some support
... there's a need for process for some resources to be
provided
mike: that's why i like the idea
of non normative stuff being in the Process document
... i respect your opinion that the process document being
minimal
... w/o some process for the Best Practices, it just becomes a
collection of random thoughts
... it seems to me that keeping this in the Process makes
sense, but i could be convinced otherwise
jeff: i don't care where it
lives, it makes sense to me that it be crowd-sourced
... we should think about who the leader should be for this
effort
... i'd be happy if koalie could do it, i haven't asked her,
but she could be busy
SteveZ: it's partly a W3M question about how they'd manage it
jeff: from Team, it'd go to the
head of Comm, which is why I mentioned koalie
... if we don't have the bandwidth, then we should step aside
and let someone else take it over
SteveZ: i'm not proposing an
idea, but perhaps things to talk about at the AC
... we have a panel session
... this is one of the pieces that came out of the recent after
discussion
... another was fixing the appeals process (probably less
controversial)
... then, the question about Member-Group participants
... -- a separate for ones that are Org vs. Individual
... allowing 4 individuals to participate freely is different
than allowing for Orgs to participate freely
... then, voting...
... i was counting on Mike and Ramen to talk about CGs and
Getting Started
... for chaals to talk about Voting
jeff: Ramen has asked that he be replaced on the panel by cwilson
SteveZ: mike, you're on top of the CG thing
mike: to the extent that the
Process document is a guide
... i'd like it to talk about CGs about how they can contribute
their work for standardization
... along the lines of the Member contribution process
... i'll provide some proposals for that
... there's nothing that forbids CGs from sending a message to
a WG to propose something for standardization by it
... putting a defined contribution mechanism would allow us to
not reinvent it each time some CG wants to do it
... the Process document acknowledging the differences between
CGs/WGs
SteveZ: Wayne had one on the
relationships between CGs and WGs
... i can represent it, and i know glazou had comments on
it
mike: is wayne on the panel?
jeff: wayne did not want to be on the panel
mike: i largely agree w/ wayne, so i can represent his view
jeff: if there's anything w/ no
strong advocate, we don't have to discuss it
... it's a panel discussion, it's supposed to encourage
discussion w/ the audience
... we've seeded the discussion, Guide, Members, CGs
... i don't want to over-manage it
... it's supposed to be natural, if the AC wants to talk about
something else, we'll do that
... these are potentially filler points
SteveZ: sure, but at leas the
ones on CGs would be useful to get out
... 1. to remind Members that they exist and to make them more
useful
... so, we should put the CG items earlier
jeff: the passion on the panel
will drive things
... if no one on a panel is a spokesperson, you shouldn't be
forced to speak for...
SteveZ: some i believe in, i'm not trying to be devil's advocate for the sake of being devil's advocate
jeff: ok
SteveZ: we don't have cwilson, but the rest of us, is there anything else we need to discuss about the panel?
<glazou> ok
<glazou> I want to say that I still think CGs will eventually be a threat to WGs because of their simplicity of launch, simplicity of operations and more (including github) ; it will become increasingly difficult to prevent them from doing spec work. Not a problem from my POV, but this has to be known/ack’d before making any choice here.
<glazou> my choice is agility
<glazou> whatever is agile
<glazou> </>
SteveZ: glazou, i'll make the
same comments in the discussion since i'm on the panel
... one note is the need to keep tracking multiple MLs
... and that isn't very productive
... maybe we just have to track one particular Github that has
branches
timeless: branches on Github
won't save you from drowning
... you'll end up getting lots of PRs for things you didn't
care about
... you'll have to pray that people have conventions to save
you
SteveZ: "tell me all i want to know, not what happens"
timeless: right
<jeff> Thanks, all.
SteveZ: and thanks once again
timeless
... (see everyone else at the AC meeting)
timeless: y/w, and good luck all
<glazou> sorry I joined late, was fixing an urgent crasher in some code to be released soon by a customer
SteveZ: no meeting next week
[ Adjourned ]
trackbot, end meeting
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