<trackbot> Date: 21 April 2015

<scribe> agenda: this

<joanie> scribe: joanie

All: Create actions for mapping @aria-placeholder.

JS: There's new text for aria-placeholder in the spec. We now need to put it in the mapping guide.

RS: In name computation or... ?

JS: We'll get to that.

<clown> ACTION: Joanie to propose ATK/AT-SPI mappings for aria-placeholder. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1619 - Propose atk/at-spi mappings for aria-placeholder. [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-04-28].

JS: Shall I give the action to Joanie for ATK/AT-SPI2 mappings for aria-placeholder?

<clown> action-1619?

<trackbot> action-1619 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose atk/at-spi mappings for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1619

JS: Due date?

JD: One week.

JS: I can do the same for Cynthia.

<clown> ACTION: Cynthia to propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1620 - Propose uia express and uia mappings for aria-placeholder. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-04-28].

<clown> ACTION: Joseph to ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1621 - Ask cynthia if uia express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the uia express column in the mapping spec. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-04-28].

<clown> action-1620?

<trackbot> action-1620 -- Cynthia Shelly to Propose uia express and uia mappings for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1620

RS: Next time Cynthia is on the call, ask her about the status for UIA Express.

<clown> action-1621

<trackbot> action-1621 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Ask cynthia if uia express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the uia express column in the mapping spec. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1621

JS: Suggestions for whom I should give the IA2 job to? Alex?
... The mapping for OS X is already done.

JD: I would give the IA2 one to Alex.

<clown> ACTION: Alex to Propose MSAA + IA2 mapping for aria-placeholder. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Alex'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

<clown> ACTION: surkov to Propose MSAA + IA2 mapping for aria-placeholder. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1622 - Propose msaa + ia2 mapping for aria-placeholder. [on Alexander Surkov - due 2015-04-28].

<clown> action-1622

<trackbot> action-1622 -- Alexander Surkov to Propose msaa + ia2 mapping for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1622

JS: And one final action for me to confirm with James Craig that the mapping is correct.

<clown> ACTION: Joseph to confirm with Jame Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1623 - Confirm with jame craig that the proper axapi mapping of aria-placeholder is axplaceholdervalue. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-04-28].

<clown> action-1623?

<trackbot> action-1623 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Confirm with jame craig that the proper axapi mapping of aria-placeholder is axplaceholdervalue. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1623

<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0039.html

JS: Rich, I don't think this belongs in the name computation.
... The email I wrote to this effect is at the mailing list linked above.
... I think it should be mapped as a placeholder property.

RS: You will need to get this coordinated with Steve.

JS: And Steve had written back that nearly all the placeholders are used as names, so we might as well.

RS: I understand Steve's point.

JS: But I think the ATs are smart enough to handle this on their own.

RS: What's wrong with falling back on placeholder?

JS: I have no problem with that, but I think the AT should be doing the falling back; not the user agent.

RS: I don't think ATs care; they just want to know what the name is.
... To be honest, I agree with Steve.
... But if you can convince the browser vendors to do it differently, that's alright by me.

JS: Why wouldn't it be the platform people?

RS: Doesn't it show up in the object attributes?

JD: Yes

RS: Alot of people, especially on mobile, uses placeholder for the label.

JS: And AT can then use the placeholder text.

RS: If you were an AT, why would you say absolutely nothing if you had a placeholder and you had no label?

JS: If there was no label, I'd say the placehoder text.

JD: Orca already uses placeholder and presents it.

JS: I do this visually.

(Some discussion about what Orca does)

RS: If it's not in the name and it's not in the object attributes, it sounds like you may need to put both.

JS: I'm hoping in response to the actions I just created that people will say we need a placeholder property.

RS: I think you'll have to put it in the object attribute and also in the name computation.

JS: I don't see why. Isn't the AT smart enough to do this?
... There's a danger of it getting double-presented twice if ATs don't check to see if the name and placeholder are the same.

RS: That makes sense, the double-speaking issue.

JS: And to get around that, the ATs have to compare.
... And if you have both aria-placeholder and a native one.... We can have a mismatch.

RS: When following up with Steve, these issues would be worth mentioning.

ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.

JS: Cynthia is not here.

<clown> action-842?

<trackbot> action-842 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree -- due 2015-03-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842

JS: A long time ago someone suggested we should create a diagram showing the differences and similarities between the accessibility tree and DOM tree.
... I will ping her to see what the status is.

ACTION-1279: (Rich) Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis.

<clown> action-1279?

<trackbot> action-1279 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis -- due 2013-10-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1279

JS: I think I had an action here, but I couldn't remember what it might be.
... I'm supposed to write to Yura (the guy working on the firefox accessibility stuff for Android).

RS: Do you get to see the iOS mappings in WebKit?

JD: Yes functionally.

<clown> scribenick: clown

RS: Whos should I talk to about iOS mappings?

JD: James or Chris.

RS: Does Chris work for Apple?

JD: Yes.

RS: Can I cc you?

JD: Sure.

RS: I will followup with Chris as part of this action.

<joanie> scribe: joanie

JS: I will follow up with Yura.
... And CC you, Rich.

ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.

JS: Another Cynthia item.
... A test case for posinset and setsize when they are not all present.
... We'll leave this one as-is until next week.

ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup.

<clown> ISSUE-700?

<trackbot> ISSUE-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700

RS: Are we back to this again?

JS: It's never been resolved.
... I did contact James Craig for his take on it.
... I had asked what happens if the tbody is focusable/clickable and actually does something?
... He responded that then we do not treat it as a table.
... Which suprised me.
... So I started making a test case with a table that has a focusable tbody.
... I'm still working on it, but it's a train schedule.
... And I needed the tbody elements for morning, midday, and evening
... And they are clickable so the unwanted times can be hidden.
... I looked at the result in Safari and it was still a table, but the tbody elements were not there.
... So now I need to follow up with James.
... Do you all think that's a legit use of tbody?

JD: Why would it not be legit?

JS: I think it is.
... In the past we said they are not to be exposed unless they are focusable or otherwise interactive.

<clown> action-1544?

<trackbot> action-1544 -- Cynthia Shelly to Document rowgroup mappings for ie 11 for both uia express and uia -- due 2015-02-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1544

<clown> action-1546?

<trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0042.html

JS: That's (the above linked message) is the one.
... (Reads from text in that message)
... But I'm talking about a well-formed grid with interactive rowgroups, or in the case of tables interactive tbodys.
... So I will follow up, posting my example.
... And I'll make another one with rowgroup rather than tbody.

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/result/result in Safari/
Found Scribe: joanie
Inferring ScribeNick: joanie
Found ScribeNick: clown
Found Scribe: joanie
Inferring ScribeNick: joanie
ScribeNicks: clown, joanie
Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer Joanmarie_Diggs Bryan_Garaventa Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Found Date: 21 Apr 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html
People with action items: alex cynthia joanie joseph surkov

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