trackbot, this will be wpay

<trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand ''. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<scribe> scribenick: manu

Agenda is as follows:

1. FPWD Status

2. Focus on Next Steps

* US Fed Use Cases

* Web Payments CG Use Cases

* ISO20022 / ISO12812

* Brent's exhaustive list of use cases

3. Use Use Case call time for Payment Agent?

manu: any updates or changes to the Agenda?

FPWD Status

Manu: Has the document gone out yet?

Ian: I asked for it to be published now-ish... it'll go out before noon eastern.

Web Payments Use Cases 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-web-payments-use-cases-20150416/

manu: Short blog post is here: http://www.w3.org/blog/wpig/2015/04/16/web-payments-use-cases-fpwd/
... Any administrivia around this that we need to do?

Ian: It'll be top news story on news page at W3C, it'll be tweeted via W3C, will do a follow-up tweet. Will review blog post on page. Then we try to make as much noise in other venues as we can.
... Should make it more obvious on IG home page that the spec is live.

Manu: So, we should start doing reach out.

Ian: Look for media reports on the launch... I reached out to 20 organizations yesterday and the day before. I don't know what stories we'll see yet.
... Talked w/ Pat and the US Fed - asked them to make an announcement.
... I would love participants to do that as well. Tweet it out!
... We want to tell more and more people about the draft - when I talked w/ people - I'm talking about the plan overall, we need to say architecture is important and is being done. We want technical work to start before the end of 2015.

Focus on Next Steps

manu: What do we want to do wrt. next steps.
... We have multiple documents that we can look at.
... US Fed Use Cases, Web Payments CG Use Cases, ISO20022 / ISO12812, Brent's exhaustive list of use cases... are there any other use cases documents that we can think of?

<CyrilV> my document about credit transfer ?

manu: CyrilV what about document on credit transfer.

<Ian> Manu: we have outlined an area of the doc that talks about credit/debit transfer

<Ian> ...we should review Cyril's doc to make sure it is covered

http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-web-payments-use-cases-20150416/#credit-transfer-direct-debit

CyrilV: What if we look at my document?

Manu: What about if you propose some text?

CyrilV: Yes, I can do that.

Manu: Anytime in the next month would be fine.

<scribe> ACTION: Manu to send Cyril a use case scenario template file to fill out. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-wpay-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Send cyril a use case scenario template file to fill out. [on Manu Sporny - due 2015-04-23].

Adrian: Can you send the template to me as well?
... There are a few use cases that we've been talking about at Ripple that I'd like to get in there.

Manu: Great, just follow the format in the document.
... Any other documents that we should be aware of?

<Ian> Manu: I have one

Manu: There are Gates Foundation use cases for financial services for the poor that will most likely be released in the next month or two... we should look at them when they come out.

Adrian: What about new WebNFC CG? There seems to be a fair amount of momentum, they have web payments under their scope... what about their thoughts on Web Payments use cases.

<Ian> Adrian: Need to see what charter of nfc cg is

Manu: I think DSR is heavily involved in that work.

Ian: Yes, I think so.
... Where do people put their new use cases?

Manu: I think mailing list is best.
... The other question is what's the priority of the use cases?
... Any other thoughts on priority?

Ian: It may be worth an agenda at the F2F meeting - next round of prioritization.

Manu: Meaning, we talk about it there?

Ian: Yeah, there may be feedback on architecture work as well - we really think so and so is important, but it's not reflected in the use cases. So we need to add some. or we may say the world has evolved, and we need to reprioritize a certain one.
... It may not be a long discussion, but it would be worthwhile.

<Ian> Manu: Hard to have a prioritization discussion in a large group

<Ian> Manu: Do we poll the group and use that as input to the discussion

<Ian> IJ: Seems reasonable to me to fuel discussion

Manu: What about having the poll before the F2F... data to fuel the discussion at the F2F on use cases.

<scribe> ACTION: Manu to put together a poll on use case priority at the beginning of June. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-wpay-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Put together a poll on use case priority at the beginning of june. [on Manu Sporny - due 2015-04-23].

Manu: So priority for use cases proposal: US Fed Use Cases, ISO20022 / ISO12812, Web Payments CG Use Cases, Brent's exhaustive list of use cases

US Fed Use Cases: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Apr/0060.html

<Ian> Manu: Where should we get use cases from 20022?

Manu: US Fed Use Cases have most amount of coverage... would be good to look at it.

<Ian> ...can someone take an action to find use cases for 20022 and 28*

<Ian> David: There is extensive implementation

<Ian> ...so it's not really use cases and really processing steps

Jackson: So 20022 has lots of use case implementation - very extensive - SWIFT and SEPA all have rulebooks based on 20022. It's not use cases, it's already setup w/ rulebooks.

Manu: We want to make sure we can support 20022 w/ Web Payments architecture...

Jackson: The ECB focuses on this stuff quite a bit - retail/card - but they've been hesitating wrt. amount of work to extend 20022 into retail structures vs. credit transfers and direct debits.

<Ian> David: Do we have a 20022 expert?

Jackson: Do we have someone that's a 20022 expert?

<Ian> Manu: There is someone from Bloomberg who worked on the docs

<CyrilV> I work on 20022

Manu: Erik at Bloomberg has access to work on that.

Jackson: It's a tough issue.

Cyril: I work on 20022 for direct debit - there are a lot of different messages for any action. We use the message for SEPA Mail project, when we want to send an invoice we send a message, when we want to answer - there are lots of different messages. All those messages could be used at any step of the use cases. The global use cases could use different messages.
... For example, if you want to use one credit transfer from one company to another - message from company to bank, one from bank to bank, then another type from receiving bank to other company - lots of messages. Maybe we could have a look and try to see where they fit. There are hundreds of ISO20022 messages. Quite few messages for payments, which is interesting.
... I'll see if someone in BPCE can check for payment messages.

Manu: The goal is to try to see if we can embed ISO20022 messages in the Web Payments messages

Cyril: Yes, it's possible we do this , we do it for SEPA Mail - and add some messages on top.

Manu: Can David Jackson, Cyril, and fellow from Bloomberg work on use cases?

<scribe> ACTION: DavidJ to coordinate ISO20022 use cases with Cyril and Bloomberg ISO20022 expert. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-wpay-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'DavidJ'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Jackson to coordinate ISO20022 use cases with Cyril and Bloomberg ISO20022 expert. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-wpay-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Coordinate iso20022 use cases with cyril and bloomberg iso20022 expert. [on David Jackson - due 2015-04-23].

Manu: To go back over priorities - US Fed (manu/pat), ISO20022 / ISO12812 (davidJ, Cyril, Bloomberg), Web payment CG (CG will handle this), and brent's list (manu will deal w/ that)

<ShaneM> +1

<Jackson> +1

<AdrianHB> +1

<CyrilV> +1

manu: +1

Shift Use Case call time to the Payment Agent?

<Ian> +1

manu: The proposal is to start using this telecon time for payment agent discussion.
... Would anyone not be able to make the call if we switched?

No objections, people say they'll be able to make it.

Payment Agent document is here: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/payment-agent/index.html

ShaneM: Happy to walk through the document.

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/payment-agent/index.html#toc

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/payment-agent/index.html#key-principles-and-goals

Manu: if people could read through that - figure out if there are any concerns w/ starting document out that way...

ShaneM: Are you editor, Manu?

Manu: Nope, Joerg and Pat.

ShaneM: Happy to see accessibility up at the top of the document :)

Jackson: like it - like accessibility comments - forces better design.
... The rest of it looks fine to me.

Manu: Next up is - https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/payment-agent/index.html#elements-of-a-unified-web-payments-architecture
... This section concerns me - should we start out w/ this?

Jackson: Being through payments hub implementations - that's what is being listed here - integration points w/in ecosystem. It's not saying there /is/ ledger functionality in the standard, but you need to know at what point you need to get to that.
... I'm a bit confused as to where the edges are wrt. the Payment Agent.
... For example, focusing on accounting - you can go all the way in - we stub it there and say someone else is going to do it.

Manu: This document is fairly important when it comes to deciding what we're going to work on: https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/
... It's important to do bare minimum for standardization...

ShaneM: I'm not sure W3C has done a great job of sticking to extensible Web Manifesto.

Manu: So digital signatures can't be broken out - must be there in the standard.
... So maybe we could split out core functionality, and something for value-add.

Jackson: So, we don't need something like a SEPA rulebook... when it comes to accounting/ledger - would message format / standard of interaction be a part of this activity.

Manu: So, we want to point out where we want interoperability and the important pieces of information that are needed, but not describe the message in detail, that's for the WG.

ShaneM: The people that are serious in this space care about interop, so we don't need to make that case, which is nice.

Adrian: One quick comment - in the use case document, we talk about phases - which is powerful. Maybe we can get that into the document? Integration points? Something worth thinking about - we have phases, within each phase, maybe we could discuss integration points for that phase.
... At a high-level, base them on the phases.

Manu: What happened w/ payment phases in the document?

Ian: I had a constructive conversation w/ Pat - will go and talk w/ him on Monday - we walked through the structure of the document.
... The heart of our conversation yesterday. There was strong agreement in order to know what requirements are, we have to analyze each use case. We are going to do that - walk through each use case, figure out what implications are... what questions the group will need to answer.
... For example, first one - HobbyCo - no real requirements there, but will we want a standard vocabulary with which we express Offers?
... So, we're going to have a lot of that discussion, write down questions we have - that's called the "Analysis"
... After the Analysis - we should be able to see patterns for requirements emerging. Part 2 of the conversation, when we aggregate this stuff, we're likely to come up with a structure that look like the structure that Pat and Joerg have right now.
... The document structure skipped the analysis phase, but how we present it in the document can be discussed.
... We should catalog the requirements - draft ToC is how others think the cataloging will happen. I was protesting - I don't think we should have the catalog yet... we don't know what requirements are.
... For example, taxation is there - but no use case on it. When we do the analysis, we might want to have a template... what are the security considerations, privacy, accessibility, etc.
... Identity / Credentials considerations... we may use the template for doing the analysis - after we have the long work done of analyzing the use cases, we'll have a clearer picture of what to do w/ use cases.
... Do we do bottom up thing first, or top down - open question.

<Ian> Manu: The way the document is structured now, it's hard for people to take in...too much at once

<Ian> ...I'd like the beginning of the document to talk about core functionality...analysis can be later in document

<Ian> +1 to getting the analysis done

<Ian> ...but should not lead with that in the doc

<Ian> manu: any final comments?

<Ian> manu: Next meeting: 1 week from today

<Ian> Manu: I look forward to seeing work of Pat and Ian and next week we will focus on payment architecture

<Ian> [Adjourned]

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/2022/20022/
Succeeded: s/trackbot, this will be wpay//
Succeeded: s/My regrets as I am busy with other work and don’t have the time to attend today’s call.//
Found ScribeNick: manu
Inferring Scribes: manu

WARNING: Replacing list of attendees.
Old list: +33.1.58.40.aaaa
New list: +1.614.560.aaaa +1.540.961.aabb manu DavidJ +33.1.58.40.aacc CyrilV Ian SunQian ShaneM Adrian

Default Present: +1.614.560.aaaa, +1.540.961.aabb, manu, DavidJ, +33.1.58.40.aacc, CyrilV, Ian, SunQian, ShaneM, Adrian
Present: DavidJackson Manu Cyril Ian SunQian Shane Adrian
Regrets: Dave_Raggett
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Apr/0106.html
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Apr 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-wpay-minutes.html
People with action items: davidj jackson manu

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.