<trackbot> Date: 02 April 2015

can naybody give phone number for conference?

<clown> action-1349

<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349

<scribe> Scribe: Stefan

Action 1349 Patch issue-561

<MichaelC> action-1349?

<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349

MichaelC: placeholder topic

<MichaelC> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1349/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder

MC: Joanie created branch containing draft
... open questions?

Joseph: my comment was about focus issue

<MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0071.html

<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0049.html

Joanie: still looking for some background ... going through history

MC: most of review has happened

Joanie: I need more feedback
... I actively ask for review

MC: ok feedback until next thursday

RESOLUTION: joannie: merges branch if no more feedback by next week

MC: anything else?

Review Table Branch (Actions 1395, 1293, 1403; issue 423)

<MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html

MC: ok going to table branch

<MichaelC> rawgit.com/w3c/aria/tables/aria/aria.html

<MichaelC> colcount, colindex, colspan, rowcount, rowindex, rowspan

MC: clarify aria-rowcount=-1

<MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that should not be calculated by the user agent.

<MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that the value should not be calculated by the user agent.

MC: second one is proposal
... we don't have a solid decision should vs. must
... I lean towards must
... do we have consensus on wording change?

Joanie: add 1.1. on table properties
... (and other things)
... why rowcount/colcount are not limited to table itsself?

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes#item01

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes#item03

Bryan: ? Colcount can change on row basis

MC: we discussed issues 2 weeks ago - check the minutes

<asurkov> just in case, I’m in the chat but not on the phone

<joanie> asurkov: We don't seem to know why rowcount and colcount might need to be on a descendant element. :)

Bryan: Rich said it should be on row also, I think

<asurkov> joanie: cool!

<joanie> asurkov: As I recall, Rich was the one who knows and he's not here.

<asurkov> I think aria-rowcount not on the table is extra headache for implementators

<asurkov> and it’s not clear how to handle collisions

Cynthia: is walking up hierarchy inpossible?

JN: you end in a mess when DOM is complicated

Cynthia: we need a resolution that it must be on the table element

MC: fair thing would to be call out in review request

Cynthia: send email to rich and talk with him

missed that

joanie: html caption examples - ccaption is not label, screen readers will have issues with long captions spilling out everything

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-caption

Cynthia: potential issue here - woth considering

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation

Cynthia: it has been in IE forever, FF copied it
... maybe use case is not so common

joanie: we want to be parallel to html, for me a caption is pretty much a label for a table

Cynthia: no caption is not a label

gives up to recognize voices :)

MC: aria-describedby on table works fine

LJWAtson agrees with Cynthia about caption-label

caption=label

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation

Cynthia: summary is supposed to be long

Joseph: summary is the 5th coice

jamesn: caption is accessible description for table?

or accessible name?

there is a clear hierarcy defined in http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation

<asurkov> caption is name

MC: my inclanation is to leave caption in for now
... caption is fairly well widely used

<asurkov> I would suggest to take undisputable stuff only into the spec and leave all disuptable stuff for later, that could dealiver better progress

MC: that's probaby all for caption for now
... how is gridcell different from cell?

LJWatson: one is a control and one is not

Cynthia; grids are spreadsheets and interactive things - we think that too

LJWatson: grids are different on platform level ...
... grids map currently to table -- but if it interactive they map to grid

MC: vacation for separate roles on mapping level
... better to use roles instead of relying on heuristics

LJWatson: good point having use cases for different roles

joanie: if it makes difference for cells it probably also makes difference for rows

<LJWatson> +1

MC: grids can contain rows or gridrows for backward compatibility
... mplementers have to recognize different cases

joanie: how to distinguish interactive from non-interactive rows

Cynthia: not sure about table cells
... we are talking about differnt aria role for row

<jamesn> I think it will add confusion

Joseph: some rows in grid aren't interactive, some are does that cause a problem now

joanie: it is a serious question, we should have specific roles for non-interactive tables

Cynthia: people wanted to convert div soup into tables using ARIA thhis was the reason

joanie: why do we want to do this? e.g. SVG tables .. they mabe map to aria grids but they are not interactive
... there is a camp: SVG is about images and not tables, you can import HTML but User Agents dont support it
... people doing tables using text markup - don't do that
... in SVG

<joanie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6987005/create-a-table-in-svg

joanie: this link holds all discussions we are talking about

<clown> http://svg-whiz.com/svg/table.svg

<jamesn> can you embed html in SVG like you can embed svg in html?

<cyns> UIA Table pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671288(v=vs.85).aspx

janina: using text objects in SVG is a hack
... to mimic tables

<cyns> UIA Grid control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671277(v=vs.85).aspx

<MichaelC> a+ Léonie

<LJWatson> q}

<cyns> UIA tableitem control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671289(v=vs.85).aspx

<cyns> UIA grid item control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671278(v=vs.85).aspx

LJWatson: IBM has an enormous array of complex charts - svg is not a painting tool any more

Bryan: true that svg has no table mapping structure

janina: we need to do that for ARIA 2
... ARIA 1.1 has too tight time frame for that

MC: defer that +1

janina: not to take too much too early

MC: joanie please take this in your review request

MC. meaning of tables vs. grids still has lots to do

MC: other things about tables?
... or other things on your radar?

Joanie: no (short answer)

MC: looks like turning neverteless in big discussions .. lets address this to Rich

joanie: are we planning to have face to face?

MC: not concrete plans yet .. waiting till november

janina: some sort of clarity probably by end of april

<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to make a next step re table proposal

<janina> +1 to Joanie's proposal

joanie: I can make a new branch

cyns: joanie I added links to table/grid definitions for info#

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/until/by/
Succeeded: s/Joannie/Joanie/g
Succeeded: s/that causes prob now/does that cause a problem now/
Found Scribe: Stefan
Inferring ScribeNick: Stefan
Default Present: +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Stefan_Schnabel, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson
Present: +49.322.110.8.aaaa Michael_Cooper Janina Stefan_Schnabel Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer James_Nurthen Cynthia_Shelly Bryan_Garaventa LJWatson
Regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger Matt_King
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0244.html
Found Date: 02 Apr 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.