See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 24 March 2015
<clown> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: joanie
<clown> issue-700?
<trackbot> issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
JS: We started this last week, but I don't recall finishing it.
RS: What has Alex actually said?
JS: You (Rich) sent him a question and I think he answered it.
(Looks for the mailing list thread)
<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0060.html
JS: The above is Alex's reply.
1. I only see one use case for role="rowgroup" is to break rows into
groups, each groups is a separate set and position inside it and set size
are calculated independently.
RS: If I read this correctly, he
wants the actual number of rows within the group to be
reflected; not just the entire table. Correct?
... If you were going through a number of rows, and all of a
sudden the row count goes from 3 to a row count of 500, in the
same table, you'd probably go crazy if you didn't know those
rows were part of a group.
JS: Sample markup?
<richardschwerdtfeger> <table>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <rowgroup>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“1” aria-rowcount=2”>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“2” aria-rowcount=2”>
<richardschwerdtfeger> </rowgroup>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“5” aria-rowcount=500”>
<richardschwerdtfeger> …
<richardschwerdtfeger> </table>
RS: So the rowcount is in the context of the rowgroup (in the example above).
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: The above is the current
mapping.
... Three are exposing something.
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Ideally, I don't want
rowgroup exposed.
... I don't see why it would have a whole separate
rowcount
... It's confusing.
RS: We didn't have rowcounts
before.
... We can make this part of our response.
... We want rowcount to apply to the whole table, not just
groups.
<scribe> scribenick: Joanie
JS: He then says they don't
expose groups for thead, tfoot, or tbody.
... Unless they make it focusable.
... I do think he has a point with focusable. In terms of the
user agent, you can Tab to that row group. And that row group
has DOM focus.
RS: Do you want it to be a panel
or a group?
... Joanie's going to be drafting a panel role. Have you done
that yet?
JD: I am still working on table-related things.
RS: (Writing response). Rowcount
and rowindex reflect the entire table; not the rowgroup.
... Due to this, rowgroup has no impact on these values
(aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex)
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context withing row count.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count.
(Discussion about appropriate role for rowgroup)
CS: Group and panel are not the
same in MSAA or UIA.
... There's pane and group. The pane would be like the thing on
the right hand side in Office before the Ribbon.
<clown> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/Roles
CS: Typical applications you can use a function key to navigate amongst panes in Windows.
RS: So is the group of any value in a rowgroup?
JS: There has to be an accessible if it gets focus.
CS: For UIA and MSAA it will need to be a group.
JS: Joanie wants it to be a panel for ATK.
RS: Does a div map to a group also?
CS: Yes. Fieldset also maps to group.
<clown> https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#ATK-ROLE-PANEL:CAPS
JD: An ATK_ROLE_PANEL is a collection of "stuff" that is not a block of text.
RS: What does Alex have it mapped to now?
JS: He has it mapped to group.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count. So, if it has focus we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ATK_ROLE_PANEL,
RS: So I think the action is to ask James if it's ok to map this to AXGroup.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: The current mappings are on the assumption that it's not focused. Do you want to expose anything if it isn't focused and cannot be focused?
CS: Actually no.
... We'd follow the same rules as div. For instance, if it had
a name, it would be exposed.
JD: You need to be consistent: If it's focusable, and we must expose it at all, then it needs to be in the tree.
CS: That's what we do with everything. If it has tabindex, then it goes into the tree.
RS: I'll modify our response to reflect that.
CS: Don't we have rules about this (when to expose objects)?
JS: Yes.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count. So, if it is focusable (has a tabindex attribute) or it has an ARIA global attribute applied we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ROLE_PANEL otherwise it will not be mapped.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
<cyns> add UIA control type is also Group
JS: The above part of the spec
has this.
... (Reads from spec)
<richardschwerdtfeger> This is in response to your first bullet on rowgroup after today's #aapi discussion:
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count. So, if it is focusable (has a tabindex attribute) or it has an ARIA global attribute applied we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms or UIA, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ROLE_PANEL otherwise it will not be mapped.
JS: The mapping table entry for
rowgroup currently treats it as if it's a rowgroup with nothing
else on it. I need to add in an "if" clause.
... This is about the core mapping spec.
... I will take what you've written and use it as a guide for
the text I will write for the mapping spec entry for
rowgroup
RS: I'll send this text to Alex.
(Group agrees)
<clown> action-1373?
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2015-03-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
JS: This is Cynthia's action. I
think we decided to come back to it this week.
... It's to create a test case/file.
CS: Leave it overdue.
JS: This might be relevant to the rowindex, etc.
<clown> action-1590?
<trackbot> action-1590 -- James Craig to Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array -- due 2015-02-27 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1590
JS: I sent email to James.
... This is about if you use aria-owns, the AX API mapping is
the AXLinkedUIElements array.
... I happened to be testing something else and discovered
there's an AXOwns array.
... So I've emailed James to get confirmation.
<clown> AXLinkedUIElements
BG: Have you followed the discussion on the list.
RS: I haven't had time yet.
JS: I've seen it, but I haven't made up my mind yet.
RS: WCAG says you should not use it as a label.
BG: What's messing up my testing
is that placeholder is in the name calculation before
title.
... So if you have both title and placeholder, the placeholder
is used; not the title.
JS: I'm guessing Steve based this on observing what happens in the practice. (?)
BG: But in the accessibility tree, even when the placeholder text is gone, the label remains the placeholder.
<joanie_> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/use it as a guide for the text I will write./use it as a guide for the text I will write for the mapping spec entry for rowgroup/ Succeeded: s/an array/the AXLinkedUIElements array/ Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Found ScribeNick: clown Found ScribeNick: Joanie ScribeNicks: joanie, clown Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, cyns Present: Bryan_Garaventa Cynthia_Shelly Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer Rich_Schwerdtfeger Regrets: David_Bolter Found Date: 24 Mar 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]