See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 19 March 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0069.html
<scribe> scribe: MichaelC
followed up with HTML A11Y TF from our discussion last week
identified many points of documented joint dependency, so we´re ok on that front
need to figure out who will stay on top of filing bugs
ack s/followed/js: followed/
rs: we can take turns
I don´t usually look at FPWD
but for this one, we need to both here in ARIA, and in the AAPI group
js: ARIA in HTML
rs: for HTML to exit CR, will they be required to meet the mapping guide?
js: not sure if that´s established
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://specs.webplatform.org/html-aria/webspecs/master/
mc: for ARIA, we used mappings to define testability of the spec
we could offer the mappings as a way of testing part of the HTML spec
don´t know if we would say it must be tested in and of itself
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/webspecs/html-aria/master/index.src.html?specStatus=FPWD;publishDate=2015-03-11;wg=HTML%20Working%20Group;wgURI=http://www.w3.org/html/wg/;wgPublicList=public-html
<scrambling about for the right URI>
js: HTML intends to retire editors´ drafts
instead, publish daily to TR
rs: still, let´s use the above rawgit
clown: is that URI frozen?
mc: no, unless there is a specific commit in the URI, that can change at any time
note that´s not a WD, it´s just formatted as if it were
clown: think a CfC should be done on a branch that won´t have non-editorial changes
mc: I usually do that, but I don´t have hands on every CfC
we could / should make this our procedure across the board
could also ask HTML to do so, don´t know if they want to
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Joseph Review and provide feedback to Steve on ARIA in HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1598 - Review and provide feedback to steve on aria in html [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-03-26].
<^ frozen version of the same doc>
action-1598: ARIA in HTML http://rawgit.com/webspecs/html-aria/d9d5547ff647268ad6ab2497eb5fa443b2032f31/index.src.html?specStatus=FPWD;publishDate=2015-03-11;wg=HTML%20Working%20Group;wgURI=http://www.w3.org/html/wg/;wgPublicList=public-html
<trackbot> Notes added to action-1598 Review and provide feedback to steve on aria in html.
<where to file bugs?>
jc: W3C bug tracker, HTML product, some component, should auto assign to Steve
<struggles to find component, looking at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG>
<clown> action-1598?
<trackbot> action-1598 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Review and provide feedback to steve on aria in html -- due 2015-05-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1598
js: confused, the document referenced by the URI above is a different document than the one we´re considering
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://github.com/webspecs/html-aria/issues
rs: Steve wants bugs in GitHub issues ^
jg: should this include only ARIA 1.0, or also ARIA 1.1?
js: ARIA 1.1, even though the doc itself is a 1.0
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0069.html
jd: went down a rabbit hole
have more questions than answers
but working on it
have posed questions by email, can discuss here if people have thoughts
gaps, user agent normative statements, etc.
some of this is straightforward, other more meaty
action-1395?
<trackbot> action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
action-1293?
<trackbot> action-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0068.html
action-1403?
<trackbot> action-1403 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table/cell roles, rowspan/colspan attrs, related taxonomy changes, and suggestions for html mapping document -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1403
jd: working on that stuff
have been having list discussion
everyone agreed should be rowcount, rowindex, etc., instead of rcount, rindex
rs: people want to type all that extra?
jc: mostly won´t be typed by humans
where there is manual typing, what we lose in brevity we gain in clarity
rs: worth the extra bytes?
could get large
jc: if we really wanted to minimize download we´d go to rc and ri and be even more obfusticated
jd: don´t think it´s as large as it seems
rs: was just trying to save file size, but ok if you all prefer this
I have gotten feedback about overly long attributes
jd: just 2 extra characters
I went through many mailing lists to determine a consensus
jd: Dominic said there are cases where aria-rowcount needs to be on each cell
I asked what those use cases are
I think it should be on the table
same for colcount
mk: these counts are so you don´t have to have entire table in DOM?
they never change?
clown: could change if the underlying data set changes on the server
jc: treegrids with expanded rows
DOM parents could be 2 levels up
not always available
we could make these optionally on the container
but need to make available for the edge case
mk: edge case doesn´t require at cell level, but at row level
jc: there could be a pivot table
in which it´s on the other axis
jd: say whole table is visible, but only some on screen
if it has 200 rows, but 50 on screen
rowcount is 200?
rs: yes
jd: why does that need to be on each row?
rs: do you want to make AT go up to top of table?
jd: the mapping spec could decree that it be exposed as needed
but why does *author* need to put it in 200 times?
rs: one major browser requires AT to go into DOM
jc: for me the reason is, say you have a very large data set with collapsed rows etc.
mk: @@
cs: IE6 is also an edge case ;)
mk: @@
jc: usually you wouldn´t have to
do that
... not too expensive to walk up a single ancestor chain
cs: but it´s less expensive than @@
mk: @@
jd: so for now, putting it on the table / container that holds the rows
jc: either table or rowgroup
rs: IE users might not benefit from that
cs: we don´t need to optimize for an unsupported 15 year old browser
<clown> <div role="table" aria-rowcount="5000"> or <div role="rowgroup" aria-rowcount="5000">
rs: IE 11 will still ship
AT vendors will need to rewrite their code
cs: as we´ve been asking for 10 years
rs: with our clients, some have just now moved to IE 8
they demand that our products work with the old tech
they don´t care about the shiny new thing
mk: so put on table with option of row
allows authors to do that if they decide they need to
cs: <talked over again>
js: trying to put a plan for authors that will work
we need a sit-down with the AT developers
cs: yes
we´re working on that
jc: sometimes a stake in the ground is needed
cs: we´ve been warning them 10 years they need to catch up
rs: let´s see what we can do to get them moving
I´ll do whatever it takes
meanwhile, seems like we have a vehicle to make them not look so far
so JD, let´s put in both places
jd: will do
same question applies to colcount, will take similar approach
though different for cols because they don´t have same parent container as rows
jd: another question - does guidance about handling rowcount belong in ARIA spec or mappings?
rs: put in ARIA so we wouldn´t forget about it
jd: think Joseph and I will be sure to not forget :)
rs: author will probably not look at mappings spec
<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-setsize
for setsize etc. we mention it´s automatically computed
jd: yes, but that´s because author can omit if the computation will work
but for rowcount, you want UA to apply to all descendant cells?
my proposed wording is ¨expose in way platform expects it¨
which varies by platform, not always defined on cells
think this is mapping detail, not ARIA
rs: that was placeholder to be sure it was covered, since I wasn´t addressing mapping spec separately
do think @@ needs to stay there
jd: thinks I´ve preserved that
<clown> If all items in a set are present in the document structure, it is not necessary to set this property, as the http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#dfn-user-agent can automatically calculate the set size and position for each item.
clown: ^ for aria-setsize
rs: if we have something like that, it´s fine
<joanie> If all of the columns are present in the document structure, it is not necessary to set this attribute as the user agent can automatically calculate the column index of each cell or gridcell. However, if only a portion of the columns is present in the document structure at a given moment, this property is needed to provide an explicit indication of the column of each cell or gridcell with respect to the full table.
jd: ^ is what I did
took out some UA MUST from the ARIA spec
rs: how about you put all this in a branch for us to review
jd: <apoplectic>
many questions being answered now
<clown> If all of the columns are present in the DOM, it is not necessary to set this attribute as the user agent can automatically calculate the column index of each cell or gridcell. However, if only a portion of the columns is present in the document structure at a given moment, this property is needed to provide an explicit indication of the column index of each cell or gridcell with respect to the full table.
hadn´t done until now because of too many open questions
jd: another was, could colindex be implied, not required on every cell?
if there are no gaps, it can just increment for each col
but what are situations where there can be gaps?
so what are situations where you could leave index out?
mk: say some columns are hidden
rs: do you skip over them?
mk: like you see in Excel
if you scroll way right, header column may still display but ones in between could be hidden
jd: posted example of hiding a col in Google docs
clown asked if it´s in DOM
was looking, can´t seem to find the right part of the DOM to look
so still open question, do we allow gaps or not?
do authors have option of not writing all colindices, or not?
rs: hidden presumably mean can be expanded?
jd: of course
clown: I wasn´t thinking about hidden cols when I brought up question on mailing list
I was thinking about when selected rows are put in the DOM for some reason
for setsize etc. that wasn´t a consideration
but is this a situation?
rs: if they´re hidden but in DOM, it´s different from not loading into DOM
hidden should mean user can choose to expand
<joanie> <div role="row">
<joanie> <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="3">Jane</span>
<joanie> <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="4">Jones</span>
<joanie> <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="5">Acme, Inc.</span>
<joanie> <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="9">555-1234</span>
<joanie> </div>
jd: ^ is that valid, or not?
cols 6, 7, 8 are hidden
clown: then they´re in the DOM
jd: so that would never happen
clown: that was my question, can this happen? can webapp get specific columns, or must there always be a contiguous set?
jd: if they´re not there because author has chosen to hide
clown: in past, if you picked a subset, you still always got a contiguous subset
do we continue that, or anticipate that non-contiguous set?
rs: web author knows more about their app than we do
so they should override
clown: in which case colindex required on every cell
haven´t anticipated with setsize, posinset
we might need to tweak those also
mc: require on all cells, or just allow for this use case?
clown: if set is contiguous, only needed on row
but if non-contiguous, need on every cell
same for rowindex
jd: ok
now on to rowspan / colspan
could have different colindex in different rows because of spanning
does author need to put colindex everywhere here too?
I really think colindex needed on each cell, for reasons like this
rs: unless it´s computed
clown: @@
jd: with tables, if things broken in code, table visually looks wrong
clown: if author can get it right, allow them to put the indices where it´s implied
but otherwise put everywhere
jd: but they´ll all think they did it right, when they didn´t
so I propose we start with ¨authors must provide everywhere¨ and see if complaints raised during wide review of spec
mk: if author chooses to put index value on one cell on a row, they must put it on all cells in the row; there is no implied incrementing; if they put it on the row, it can be implied (propagated by UA for all cells in the row); if they put it on one row, they have to put it on all rows
jd: brilliant
I´ll write that down
rs: if you have colindex with colspan, colindex is start of colspan
jd: plan to be very explicit about that stuff
rs: want to minimize author MUST
clown: JG can put in conformance checking tools
jg: sure
jd: some examples have HTML tables as ARIA grids
others divs as ARIA grids
with divs you have to be pretty explicit with your aria
but with tables, it should be ok to omit certain ARIA properties if the native HTML one is correct
jc: yes, and you´re supposed to use native semantics where available and not override with ARIA
definitely applies here
jd: ok, now have enough to put together a proposal for wordsmithing
action-1349?
<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
jd: awaiting reply to my proposal
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1349/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder
rs: maybe a different thing for the value
jc: nearly used in input textarea and contenteditable
using custom placeholders because they want different visual behavior
e.g., a div that hovers over top
that looks similar, but behaves differently for AT user
not sure we need value back in
most of the time, aria-placeholder would be used instead of @placeholder
do need to make sure ARIA version allowed to override
jd: is this just a terminology confusion since ¨value¨ has specific meaning?
rs: something about control contains no text, or content...
agree we need to be able to override
clown: you shouldn´t have both
rs: but if you do, ARIA needs to win
mk: don´t we usually specify the opposite?
e.g., for tables
clown: on table, if you have rowspan and aria-rowspan, rowspan wins
here, we say aria-placeholder wins over placeholder
jc: this is like aria-label overriding @alt
think there is action to add placeholder computation to the text computation
so this isn´t just a regular attribute, it´s part of computed value
rs: so we need to bring this to Steve´s attention
jd: ok, I´m gonna start using ¨text for content¨ instead of ¨value¨
should we add notes about what wins, or author shouldn´t do both?
if author using native, they shouldn´t use the ARIA one?
jg: what does placeholder do?
clown: hint as to what author should provide
jg: do you still also need aria-label?
various: yes
jg: what if it´s the same
clown: that would be dumb
jg: but that´s a common pattern
so, intent of aria-placeholder is a hint, not labeling
but in practice, people mix those up
jd: so, do we need to clarify native vs ARIA?
clown: we do elsewhere, such as aria-label
jd: ok, will look at that
clown: so need to define AAPI mappings?
would like to define a ¨placeholder¨ property and let AT sort
is it the browser´s job to put placeholder in the name, or AT´s job to fetch it?
rs: if you have text box with title and placeholder, which wins?
jd: title
<richardschwerdtfeger> The placeholder attribute represents a short hint (a word or short phrase) intended to aid the user with data entry when the control has no value. A hint could be a sample value or a brief description of the expected format. The attribute, if specified, must have a value that contains no "LF" (U+000A) or "CR" (U+000D) characters.
clown: HTML says use placeholder as last resort
<janina> FYI: We have a CFC to publish FPWD of HTML-AAM, please respond!
<janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0112.html
<jongund> got to go
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/could change if the underlying data changes/could change if the underlying data set changes on the server/ Succeeded: s/hiddne/hidden/ Succeeded: s/hid/hide/ Succeeded: s/ever/every/ Succeeded: s/@@/if author chooses to put index value on one cell on a row, they must put it on all cells in the row; there is no implied incrementing; if they put it on the row, it can be implied (propagated by UA for all cells in the row); if they put it on one row, they have to put it on all rows/ Succeeded: s/ (so hopefully it´s ok that the scribe missed)// Found Scribe: MichaelC Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC Default Present: fesch, Jon_Gunderson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, Cynthia_Shelly Present: fesch Jon_Gunderson Joanmarie_Diggs Michael_Cooper Janina Rich_Schwerdtfeger Joseph_Scheuhammer James_Craig Bryan_Garaventa Matt_King Cynthia_Shelly Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0069.html Found Date: 19 Mar 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes.html People with action items: feedback joseph provide review WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]