<trackbot> Date: 12 March 2015

<scribe> scribe: jon_avila

WAI charters

jeanne: WAI charter -- has to reapproved every 3 years. We need a certain percentage of membership to respond.

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/wai_2015/results

jeanne: check with AC reps to respond for charters
... all WAI charters are up.
... can look up AC rep if you don't know who it is.
... we have 4 so far and it's been out for two weeks.
... Helps to show membership that we care about accessibility and we want the work to go forward. A lot of responses would be helpful.

CSUN debrief

jeanne: CSUN debrief from those who were at CSUN.

<AWK> Look up AC reps here: https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList.php

jeanne: Kathy and I presented on Friday @ 8am -- had a lot of questions. Lot of people wanted to get involved. People were excited to see the note.
... attended another session where presenter said WCAG had nothing to do with mobile

<Jan> Jon: I had a mobile presentation on ARIA, but I couldn't be there.

<Jan> Jon: Only one person there as it wasn't advertised well

<Jan> Jon: Tests of 30 different ARIA roles in various mobile browsers

<Jan> Jon: Some controls like spin buttons not seen at all

<Jan> Jon: Some controls with keyboard equivs performed very poorly

<Jan> Jon: I will paste in a link

<Jan> Jon: Or you can contact me directly

<Jan> MikeS: That was a great session, really well done...ability to compare browsers

Link to download my presentation on ARIA and mobile http://info.ssbbartgroup.com/csun2015/

<Jan> MikeP: Back to comment on WCAG not applying to mobile

MikeP: Leading work on EU public procurement standard -- developed requirements related to mobile.

<AWK> There is one particularly outspoken individual who evangelizes the "WCAG doesn't work for mobile" view.

MikeP: US Access Board wanted to use WCAG for mobile. At first we weren't going that direction but then we started to look at it and then took a strong view and found that there was a lot of commonalities

<AWK> Think that we just need to say it does more and keep producing evidence to support the point

david: First time on mobile TF -- as we go further we need to get more granular on advice,

MS: Launched Android app and presented on what is Yahoo is doing on iOS and Android.

<shebanek> Aviate - A launcher app from Yahoo that is accessible

<shebanek> Aviate only available for Android

jeanne: WAI 2020 meetings were also at CSUN but not well advertised -- talked about future direction of WCAG. Talked about what the mobile TF had done.
... could do separate normative requirements and not change WCAG.
... our model was to get a group of people working in a narrow area. We could start to make normative requirements in this area.
... still in early stages of this. We aren't saying yes yet.

MS: maybe we are looking at this backwards. We are providing a really smart and proper system and the justice system to come to a conclusion that they do need this work -- because they will indeed need this work because they could be sued over something they weren't aware of. We shouldn't be afraid of the work we are doing and we should push forward.

Alan: Even DOJ and ADA refer to WCAG even if they don't have it as a binding requirement.

jeanne: in the US there is not specified website accessibility standards for non-government or education sites. Lawsuits have been settled with WCAG.

<Jan> Jon: I've looked at some of settlements, they are referring WCAG for mobile and I've seen them reference ATAG and WCAG

<Jan> Jon: But sometimes its stated generally which can cause some uncertainty

MS: Accessibility will be built into Apple Watch -- do we need to update notes?

jan: Think it is contemplated sufficiently

Comments on note (changes will be included in a future version of the note)

jeanne: Comments from EO -- we didn't finish from two weeks ago

kim: Jeanne were you also checking github for comments?

jeanne: we did get a number of comments in github which is cool

<jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/issues

jeanne: Wanted to mention mobile web checker. Had a good conversation with colleague who is making a mobile checker that hopefully will be in public beta.
... Will help people who are creating sites or app for the desktop but need to know how it will work on mobile.
... Eager to get accessibility testing into checker. Gave him example of touch size -- interested in getting that into checker.
... invites people to contribute accessibility tests into github.
... drop jeanne an email if you need more information
... not testing for conformance but helpful app for developers.

<jeanne> jeanne@w3.org is my email

alan: 9mm number comes from Android developers and other sources

jeanne: 9mm is starting place for conversation -- may not be final number we recommend.

kim: let's go from bottom up on github issues as it's newest.
... Commenter: should consider add click as it's not specific to touch interface

jeanne: may be slightly different as click misses the point

jan: A click is a mouse or touch down and then up.

alan: could put in equivalent or device supported equivalent

jeanne: under 3.3 second bullet

jan: click would be fine.

<jeanne> Activating elements via the mouseup or touchend event. Using the mouseup or touchend event to trigger actions helps prevent unintentional actions during touch and mouse interaction.

<jeanne> Activating elements via the click event. Using the mouseup or touchend event to trigger actions helps prevent unintentional actions during touch and mouse interaction. Mouse users clicking on actionable elements (links, buttons, submit inputs) should have the opportunity to move the cursor outside the element to prevent the event from being triggered. This allows users to change their

<jeanne> minds without being forced to commit to an action. In the same way, elements accessed via touch interaction should generally trigger an event (e.g. navigation, submits) only when the touchend event is fired (i.e. when all of the following are true: the user has lifted the finger off the screen, the last position of the finger is inside the actionable element, and the last position of the

<jeanne> finger equals the position at touchstart).

kim: more that it was unclear -- the comment helps to make the connection clear.

<Mike_Pluke> +1

<jeanne> +1

<Alan_Smith> +1

<marcjohlic> +1

kim: 3.1 keyboard control. Commenter: VoiceOver and Talkback work different in how they place content without text in reading order when screen reader is active.
... Commenter says e.g. spans with no text but background image are not accessible on Anrdoid w/ Talkback

jan: describes problem that keyboard interaction works different on different platforms

<Kim> Many considerations that are nominally for keyboard (such as focus order, and the fact that elements that are actionable need to also be keyboard-focusable) are equally valid for users of screen readers on touch-screen devices. While VoiceOver/iOS (because of the way its navigation works) lets users focus even on non-focusable elements (such as a <span> for instance), TalkBack/Android does...

<Kim> ...not, depending on the specific way a control was coded...in most cases, if there's no actual text content (so for instance an empty <span> with only some CSS-based indicator, like an icon font or CSS background image, will simply not be focusable/navigated to, and therefore cannot be triggered).

<Kim> It may be worth mentioning this aspect as well?

<Kim> The above is the comment on 3.1

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to update the editor draft in 3.3 bullet: change "Activating elements via the mouseup or touchend event." to "Activating elements via the click event". [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Update the editor draft in 3.3 bullet: change "activating elements via the mouseup or touchend event." to "activating elements via the click event". [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-03-19].

MS: what we need to say is that we need to support keyboard access when screen reader is not running.

<Alan_Smith> Can we get a confirmationon the suggested Android Accessibility helper app is Avaite. I only see Yahoo Aviate Laucher in Google Play

MS: we want people to understand that by supporting keyboard control you are supporting other class of input devices.

<David> +1

alan: +1

kim: Any last things?

<jeanne> ACTION: MikeS to write an proposal on the importance of the keyboard for a range of other devices. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Write an proposal on the importance of the keyboard for a range of other devices. [on Mike Shebanek - due 2015-03-19].

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Found Scribe: jon_avila
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Default Present: Jeanne, TomB, Alan_Smith, David_MacDonald, Marc_Johlic, +1.703.637.aaaa, Jan?, jon_avila, MikeB, +1.408.425.aabb, MikeS, Kim_Patch
Present: Jeanne TomB Alan_Smith David_MacDonald Marc_Johlic +1.703.637.aaaa Jan? jon_avila MikeB +1.408.425.aabb MikeS Kim_Patch

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Found Date: 12 Mar 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: jeanne mikes

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