Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 02 March 2015

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-dpub-minutes.html

Tzviya: "review the minutes from last week, any comments? Alan posted something on the list about packaging"
...: "Minutes approved..."

Houdini

...: "Turn over to Alan and Dave. The magic of CSS + Houdini. VINI VIDI VICI"

"I was at the houdini meeting. Goal is to extend CSS. Cover big black box where stuff goes in, stuff comes out. If magic isn't what you want, it is difficult to make changes"

"goal of houdini is to make a script to make it easier to understand how a browser lays things out."

"Lots of things about properties and exposing the parser..."

<ivan> s/"I was"/Alan: "I was"/

"Script to be able to handle the new stuff. Also more complicated things like exposing where things are being drawn in a more robust way than we are doing so far. Also letting scripts determine where things will be drawn, or letting scripts change the way things are handled. Custom layouts..."

<astearns> http://www.mail-archive.com/dev-servo@lists.mozilla.org/msg01131.html

scribe: "Simon Sapin gave a great introduction (link above) summarized each of the documents the task for will be working on."
... "The sense I got was - bunch of enthusiasm, no public NOs, but lots of private skeptisism"
... "This is a thing to keep track of, to make sure people aren't going overboard, but probably less than 1/2 of what was discussed will see movement in the next year or so"
... "Hopefully I will find others who are interested in pushing the little bits and plumbing related items."

Charles: ? "Red flag - was there any talk of accessibility in any of thisLaPierre "

Alan: "It was discussed, some of this stuff could be useful for accessiblity. One message posted to the list yesterday, was allowing in custom-layout, having custom line-break. More sophisticated outline for better line measures. People are doing this today - on canvas - so it loses accessibility."
...: "If there is a way to hook into the actual drawing of the text, it can make the text displayed nicer with more accessibility. But it's always something to consider. Custom boxes need to be full citizens with full access, etc..."

Tzviya: "Dave/alan - can you give us an idea of how this might affect digital pub - near/long term."

<tzviya> vivliostyle summary of Houdini: http://vivliostyle.com/2015/02/sydney

Alan: "Near term there is a new - vivliostyle - that is looking to put pagination on top of existing browser using scripting. Some of the low-level elements are what they need in order to make a 'nice' reading experience in the browser. They were in the meeting and will be involved. Their work will be accelerated if the lower-level work gets going"
....: "Longer term, it may be that some engines that do not immediately support a paginated view, but allow a paginated view through custom scripts, etc. Some engines may go that route."

Peter: ? "Is the following helpful: I'm in the process of organizing in the MathML group - how can MathML move closer to other standards? There is lots of duplication. Are these useful use-cases for this group that could be related? Altmetrics? API has there been any discussion on that?"

<dauwhe> Peter Linss reports on the Houdini meeting to the TAG: https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2015/telcons/02-26-houdini-minutes.md#css-extensibilityhoudini

Alan: "Going over what voids what MathML needs is a terrific topic for the Houdini group. If there are extensions to CSS that MathML needs, thats useful. On FontMetrics? that is the one document I'm on the hook for, so I'd really like to see your requirements about what measurments you'd need from the fonts. Also, where you'd need the used-font-info to be used."

<david_stroup> I'm 585.217

Alan: "All the info in the world isn't useful if you don't know what the browser is actually using. And where they're drawing the fonts in the font box."

Peter - ** Action item - send MathML interests to be discussed with the Houdini group

<tzviya> action gather font metric info from MathWG for Houdini

<trackbot> Error finding 'gather'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

<ivan> action pkra to gather font metric info from the MathWG for Houdini

<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Gather font metric info from the mathwg for houdini [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2015-03-09].

Tzviya: "Question to all - what would you like from DPUB going forward?"

Alan? : "If any of you are involved with scripting projects that do custom layouts/drawing, that CSS doesn't do today, if there are problems/hacks, please let us know/post them to Houdini. Will help guide the work that we are doing."
...: "Microsoft group is heavily interested in Pagination... As with DigiPub..."

Ivan: "Question is - what kind of time do you expect before we will see a result that the publishing world can directly use? Taking into account the real-interest from the core web-engine/browser vendors..."

Alan: "Too early to guess. Hasn't been movements on the documents since the meeting ended. Best scenario is some movement on custom properties in the next few months. The adoption will make CSS polyfills MUCH easier to create."
...: "Then might see some movement on other items, like FontMetrics, but those are the only ones we'll see adoption in the next year or so. The rest are long-term planning."
... "I'm being pessimistic..."

Dave: "One more possibly helpful thing - if people see some of these ideas as being useful to them - talk to the iBooks team couldn't hurt anyway.
...: "Would get webkit to work on some of these features..."
... "Also note that Houdini was discussed at the tags meeting as well."
... "IRC logs for that meeting [can someone post link?] might provide some useful perspective"

call for comments from CSS WG on CSS fragmentation module level 3

Tzviya: "Next time - call for comments on Working Draft of CSS Fragmentation Module Level 3"

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-break/

<pkra> bedtime reading.

!!!!!! - have to go, scribe out

<ivan> scribenick: tzviya

<ivan> scribenick: liza

<tzviya> volunteers to review and comment: brady, liza

<ivan> scribenick: tzviya

<liza> SOUNDS THRILLING

ivan: how does this relate to Houdini?

astearns: Rossen sees a need for additional breaking opportunities, but needs to fill in what that need is

tzviya: will the fragmentation spec serve as a stop-gap?

astearns: Frag spec includes some really good information for how to break pages, etc. But, Brady's use cases have many more requirements
... such as letting a script know where a page starts
... this will be filled in by Houdini in the Fragment Tree doc

<dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

<ivan> scribenick: dauwhe

epub3.1 work plan

tzviya: this came up at edupub meeting in sunny Arizona

<Ayla_Stein> Wait until May/June

<ivan> scribenick: NickRuffilo

<dauwhe> scribenick: NickRuffilo

<pbelfanti> Apologies, I need to drop

<ivan> Markus' slides from the meeting: http://bit.ly/1AwoYW4

Tzviya: "Epub 3.1 was released severl months ago. Bug fixes, and ISO wording + backwards compatibiliyt. Marcus opened up floor for next version. There was lots of discussion about what might be done, no formal decisions. 3d format as a core media type. Migration of epub type to role attribute. Expression extended presentations from doc..."
...: "One example - using the filmstrip to see what document looks like on the inside. Some possible deprication of things for epub - such as switch tag. No discussion on timeline, so not sure when work is getting started."

<pkra> yes.
...: "Goal of ePub 3 is to go in a webby-ier direction. So the work is towards a convergence."

Brady: "At this point, we're still trying to decide what the direction of 3.1 is, so if you have a voice, we can hear it. Gathering requirements is now. Not sure on direction as we're listening."

Tzviya: If you think something is missing, please comment. CSS Profile?
... Contact Marcus with your thoughts/suggestions. No official timeline

<david_stroup> Apologies, I need to drop as well...

Bill_Kasdorf_Kasdorf: Instead of providing ways to embed more and more metadata within the epub, be able to embed a link to an authoritative service [nick - such as DOI, etc]
...: One reason I bring this up, is that it relates to recent identifiers work
... Grand total of 1 volunteer for Identifier work, so if you want to help PLEASE do

Ivan: "Was on the road + Thierry was on vacations. I will work with you."

Thierry: "I have created the Identifier wiki : Link below:"

<tmichel> the identifiers wiki is linked from the wiki main page

<tmichel> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Main_Page

<tmichel> and is available at http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers

Julie: "Are there clear timelines on the taskforce page as to when they are starting?"

Tzviya: "Cleanup is needed, we need to work on this. "

...: " This is the beginning of conference season, but we should work on updating timelines and making sure that data on the wiki is accurate"
... " Maybe next meeting have a check-in with task forces to ensure updated data."