The EOWG convened to review the task sorting exercise completed by participants during this week. Kevin reported that there was more divergence than he had hoped and several people volunteered to finds others to complete the task sorting and add to the data. Next Shawn asked everyone to review the list of Images changes and Forms changes. Once your review is complete, please take the Approval to Publish Survey. Wayne was unsatisfied with how the tutorial addresses longdesc and Shadi asked for more discussion about the misunderstandings around the treatment of longdesc. Shawn suggested that we complete the current agenda and leave the longdesc further discussion for the end of the meeting as an optional topic, allowing others to leave and do the review and survey as needed. The next topic was the Face to Face meeting for EO participants. We will NOT meet at CSUN this year but are still considering a meeting at AccessU in Austin. Howard also offered meeting space at Accessing Higher Ground in November in Boulder. The optional longdesc description centered around varied understanding of how browsers render the longdesc attribute. Wayne is not satisfied that the tutorials treat the subject with sufficient thoroughness and feels there may be an even larger issue. He agreed to do one more careful review considering Shadi's clarification and continue the discussion online and next week.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Planning/Information_Architecture#Task_Sorting_Activity
Kevin: Thanks to all who did the activity. We were trying to get an understanding of how these tasks fit together. Wanted some different perspectives on the information that people might be seeking and how to best organize it to be easilty found.
... trying to think broadly. Labels for the groupings have been analyzed to see what clusters that are emerging. The emerging clusters are not as closely aligned or as clearly defined as I would have hoped.
... so initially I have put it in the wiki
<kevin_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Planning/Information_Architecture#Results -> Task sorting results
<kevin_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Planning/Information_Architecture#Analysis -> Task sorting analysis
Kevin: this is very early stage and so I am now looking at group names and language being used for these. There is some overlap but also divergence in how individuals understand their role and the way they would approach the task. Terminology varied quite a bit. So Project Management vs Implementation or Maintenance vs Reporting. Clearly there are different ways to understand depending on whether the participant is thinking of accessibility within a project or throughout the organziation. Clusters that emerged, what names are most appropriate?
Sharron:I have a question...10 responses - Is this a good sample size for an excercise like this?
<paulschantz> Like Sharron, I was thinking sample size might be too small
Kevin: Ideally I would look for about 15. It depends on the content that is being sorted. When things are very clearly defined, a smaller sample size can be useful. When the definitions are not as clear, larger samples are more useful.
Shawn: If a larger group is needed, we can ask among colleagues and list lurkers.
... you can consider that if it would be useful. How important do you think it would be to get that?
Paul: I have a different question...What was the average number of groups you saw?
Kevin: I will have to look at that and get back to you.
Wayne: This is like a qualitative analysis. Isn't it appropriate for a small group anyway? Not sure we need many more but a bit of diversity would be good.
Andrew: It would be important to be sure that the participants understand the background of what we are trying to do. I have a few groups I could ask to participate and would probably get some uptake.
<shawn> +1 to Andrew getting input from others (not people on EOWG list)
Shadi: You seem a bit unsatisfied with the data if I understand correctly. Is it usual to further refine the data or to bring more people into the process?
<Andrew> +1 to more background and explanation if we go broader :)
Kevin: Initially I think we need more analysis but we could definitely benefit from more input. To Andrew;s point, it does need to be people who understand the process and what we are doing.
Shadi: If you were to redo the analysis at this point, would you rewrite the tasks?
Kevin: There is a danger that if you change the tasks, you can no longer use the data in the aggregate.
Wayne: I thought we had to put things in only one box, but several tasks actually belonged in more than one. I have seen other sorting excercises where the participant could add tasks.
Shawn: Kevin, what's the balance between getting more input and taking more time? From your perspective, do you want us to recruit at this point as you balance the time constraints.
Kevin: There seems to be an opportunity to get more input without significantly impacting the time. We can still move forward but could use more input especially about group labeling.
Shawn: Who can recruit people?
<paulschantz> I can get 2 for sure next week
Wayne: I could but would need two weeks. Is that timing OK?
<Andrew> Andrew can contact local folk from A11y Meetup
Shadi: I would prefer to get it done next week.
<kevin> I can probably get a couple of people
Shawn: Paul and Andrew, if you get others to complete it, it woould be nice to also send a note about what perspective they represent.
Andrew: I was just going to send a blanket email to a group of a dozen or so.
Shawn: Good, anything else on this?
Andrew: Kevin are you going to add a bit more background for those who have not been at the meetings and heard the explanation and goals?
Kevin: If we are sending it beyond the group,do they have access to the wiki?
Shawn: Yes they can read but not edit the wiki.
... Kevin can you write an email so they don't have to go to the wiki?
Kevin: Yep I can do that.
Shawn: Send that draft email to our list and people can use that to solicit input.
Kevin: OK will do.
Andrew: Terrific.
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials/Images/2015-01-changes
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials/Forms/2015-01-changes
Shawn: Please review Images changes and Forms changes. Eric has listed them in a comparitive list so you can just look at what has changed. Many are minor editorial edits, there are specific technical edits.
... would like everyone to review the changes and then take the approval to publish. We have put aside time during this teleconfernce time slot to begin.
Sylvie: Is it still possible to look at the forms?
Shawn: Yes in the approval to publish survey.
Wayne: Was my comment within the survey re: longdesc addressed?
Eric: Yes we looked at it in the WCAG-WG
Shawn: So can you follow up with Wayne?
Wayne: You did nothing with my comment and that's OK but I do not think it is an appropriate solution.
Shawn: Our hope is that you are able to take the rest of today's meeting time to review those changes today or early next week and get this done soon.
Andrew: Is there a survey ready?
Shawn: There will be by the EOB today.
Shadi: Can we discuss the misunderstandings around the long desc?
Shawn: Any other questions on the tutorials? Great
Shawn: To be held in conjunction with AccessU around May 11-13. We will not have a F2F at CSUN but we have free space offered at AccessU and Shadi is looking at deliverables around that time.
Howard: If we want to meet in November, we can provide space at AHG
Shawn: This part of the agenda is optional, you may take this hour to work on the tutorials review or stay for the longdesc discussion.
... Eric do you understand the issue that Wayne has raised or do you want him to explain?
Shadi: The issue is that previous implementation of longdesc in most browsers is that it was rendered only to screen readers. Currently Chrome and FF render the longdesc to all users.
Wayne: If that is the case and that the data is available and that the attribute is not being stashed away in ARIA.
<yatil> The Tutorial says: "Note: The longdesc linked long description location is reachable by all users in Firefox. There is an official Chrome Extension provided that adds long description access. In other browsers, it's only available to screen reader users at the moment. There is currently no support on mobile platforms."
Shadi: There has been a tremendous amount of work with Mozilla and others to be sure that it is properly rendered. We don't want to add things that will soon be obsolete. I think this is a very elegant solution, a preferred solution and bring pressure on browser makers to implement it properly.
<yatil> The tutorial also says: "Complex images can be hard to understand for a variety of users, like people with learning disabilities or who use screen magnification. Long descriptions can benefit those users as well, so the description should be made available not only for screen reader users, if possible."
Wayne: That sounds good but I have a broader issue. This harkens back to the architectural barriers that builders said would make their building ugly. Similarly there is this shortchanging for people with low vision. WCAG is in denial about thier failure to serve people with low vision.
Eric: We have made progress in implementation and are continung to work for broader imlementations. But I agree that there are things that appear to be missing in WCAG but we cannot address that in the tutorials.
Wayne: OK I did not realize that longdesc had made it into HTML5
Shadi: I don't disagree with you about what WCAG could have done better but we are in agreement that longdesc is useful for many beyond screen readers and that we can work on continuing the improvements. I hope we can clarify the issue more and are happy to consider word changes. We tried to add information and provide practical resources that will help developers do what they need to do quickly and efficiently.
Wayne: Yes and I like the tutorials and appreciate the clarification.
Wayne: I like the task sorting excercise as well and wonder kevin, could you use the data as I submitted it?
Kevin: Yes, it was fine. For this particular task it was fine and I integrated it with other people's data.
Shawn: Thanks everyone, use this hour to get started