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<trackbot> Date: 29 January 2015
<scribe> scribeNick: nigel
nigel: Outlines agenda, asks for AOB
group: no AOBs
action-360?
<trackbot> action-360 -- Nigel Megitt to Send liaison request on behalf of w3c ttwg to arib -- due 2014-12-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/360
nigel: I need to chase on this one
action-364?
<trackbot> action-364 -- Glenn Adams to Add paragraph in intro that summarizes changes from ttml1 (comment from tm) -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/364
glenn: I'll add this to a later
WD but prior to the FPWD add a pointer to the changes
document.
... I don't want to add an editorial summary now because it's
too soon.
tmichel: I agree it's not an immediate requirement, for an FPWD. There's no rush to do it today.
nigel: I've moved the due date
for this to 17th March.
... The next one is Action-365 - let's discuss in the context
of TTML2 issues.
nigel: A couple of people were
going to discuss hosting options - if you could come back next
week
... that would be great.
... In terms of date, is 9-10 April looking good?
... Folk will need to make arrangements concrete pretty soon,
so it would be good to get this
... fixed in the diary soon - if we can do it next week that
would be great.
nigel: The basis of the TTML2 review was the snapshot:
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml2/spec/ttml2-20150114-pre-fpwd-review-1.html
glenn: I didn't intend that we
publish that exactly - the SOTD section needs to be modified,
and
... it needs to go through pubrules.
... Plus there are a number of other changes since then.
nigel: Does anyone want to raise
anything specifically on the snapshot, before we deal with
the
... later changes?
tmichel: For the FPWD please
could you comment out the two paragraphs following the
contributing authors
... before the copyright section, referring to errata and
translation - we add those at Rec level.
glenn: The above link gives a diff between the snapshot and the editor's draft
nigel: Pierre raised a number of points - do they need edits before we publish as FPWD?
pal: Not necessarily. I would like to see a plan especially wrt the SMPTE requests.
nigel: So do we need to send a
disposition back to SMPTE on our changes relative to
their
... requests, and get their feedback?
pal: Yes, and also it would be helpful for SMPTE to know if their specs have any problems.
glenn: We don't have any
obligation to communicate back with SMPTE, though the issue
raiser could do so.
... Also, more philosophically, IMO when another organisation
has created an orthogonal specification
... like the SMPTE D-cinema folks did we don't have any
obligation to adopt verbatim 'whatever they did'
... on principle alone.
<glenn> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#handling_of_tatechuyoko
glenn: It's legitimate for us to
have different design criteria, or to think another solution is
wrong.
... The link above shows 3 examples of what I've been
describing re horizontal placing in
... an em square.
nigel: It makes sense to have
continuing communication with SMPTE with the aim of
worldwide
... harmonisation, so it would be appropriate to respond to
their liaison with our disposition.
... That might be 'yes, we've done X', or 'we don't understand
why you want to do it', or
... 'we've done Y - does that meet your needs?' for
example.
glenn: I don't object to sending a liaison.
<scribe> ACTION: nigel Collate SMPTE issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/29-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-369 - Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-02-05].
nigel: Are there any specific snapshot issues to discuss now before FPWD?
<glenn> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#composition_of_emphasis_dots
glenn: I appreciate pal's
questions, and I'd like to respond to them.
... Above is a link that describes emphasis marks.
... Re tts:position, the use case is to address a couple of
issues. One of them was a part of the
... collection of proposed changes that Sean proposed some time
back. One was to support
... attachment points, from CEA708. The positioning model of
WebVTT could be partly viewed
... as relating to that.
pal: My concern is that we only
just got people using tts:origin correctly, but we don't have
to solve this right now.
... I'm generally concerned about complexity.
glenn: I think we need this to
address the submitted issues.
... We can't avoid some increase in complexity. We could omit
some features of course.
... My position is to move forward early and then remove
features. It provides more flexibility
... to see what gets implemented and it makes sure that
features are handled in the IPR disclosures.
... Before I publish the FPWD we can register the new points as
issues or put Ed Notes into
... the document or notes for the editor to deal with
comments.
nigel: It depends on the nature of the issue. It is important that substantive changes can be tracked.
glenn: I don't mind if things are added as issues.
issue-367?
<trackbot> issue-367 -- Clarify initial value override for tts:textAlign -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/367
reopen issue-367
<trackbot> Re-opened issue-367.
issue-368?
<trackbot> issue-368 -- The [Construct Intermediate Document] process erroneously prunes empty <br> elements -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/368
reopen issue-368
<trackbot> Re-opened issue-368.
glenn: On Issue-367, I had missed
in my review that there's language that overwrites an
initial
... value. I want to repeat that it makes IMSC1 incompatible
with TTML, so it needs to be fixed.
... IMSC 1 should not be contrary to TTML1.
... It violates the process and conformance section of TTML1
and sets a bad precedence.
... I would propose to remove the override of the initial
value.
pal: I haven't looked in detail
at this - it came from SMPTE-TT. I'd like to understand why
this
... was done. At first glance I'm not opposed to IMSC 1
removing the override but I'd like us to
... understand. I'd recommend to inform SMPTE, even if we don't
follow what they say. It seems
... like the wrong course of action to make changes without
consulting.
... I think this should be added to the liaison as per the
previous action.
nigel: Okay I'll add it to the list.
action-365?
<trackbot> action-365 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/365
issue-229?
<trackbot> issue-229 -- Mixed vertical-horizontal progression direction -- closed
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/229
pal: The starting point of this
thread is a SMPTE request, and what's been implemented is
... significantly different to that request, so I have the same
question: why?
glenn: I've always taken the tack
that if an issue is filed requesting some feature then we
need
... to look at the intent of the feature and then look at how
to support it in the context of TTML.
... In this case the intent is, in my understanding, is to
support Tate-chu-yoko in Japanese layout.
... I implemented something that matches real world usage in
Japan and Asia, i.e. what I understood
... to be the intent of SMPTE. So I don't view it as being
substantively different.
nigel: So the question there is:
is that understanding correct, or is there some missing set
of
... semantics?
pal: I look at it as not just being to do what SMPTE asked, but to make TTML as good as it can be.
glenn: The proposed solution
doesn't prevent the text going outside the nominal line
width.
... Also this is basically the same as how it's done in CSS.
There's a lot of latitude here - it leaves
... a lot of room for the client to determine its behaviour.
The SMPTE request and referenced document
... does the same - e.g. it doesn't discuss the issue of how to
alter the line width in the presence
... of an authored Hgroup that would increase the line width.
It's like inserting an image inline
... with some English text in Word - what should happen to the
line width? What about the rest
... of the paragraph? This isn't discussed. So the request is
under-specified and so is the proposed
... solution. I don't view that as necessarily a bad thing but
as something that needs time to
... progress and achieve standardisation. In some cases it may
need to be left implementation-
... specific.
pal: Glenn, you've made very good
points. We should collect those places where there is a
... divergence and inform SMPTE. SMPTE's response could be one
of a number of possibilities,
... which could help us proceed.
PROPOSAL: publish the TTML2 ED as a FPWD
tmichel: Yes, we can go ahead and
do that depending on when the updated version is updated.
... When the document is finalised then I'll request
publication for Thursday.
RESOLUTION: We will publish the TTML2 ED with modified SOTD as a FPWD
glenn: Just to be clear this is the current ED not the snapshot
pal: I'll respond to tmichel's email about how the test cases were generated.
tmichel: My main question is: are the features all MUST?
pal: They're all MUST.
tmichel: So all the features required by IMSC 1 are listed there?
pal: yes.
tmichel: Can we list implementations too?
pal: I am going to try to get people to provide results now the test cases are mainly done.
nigel: [adjourns meeting] Thank you all, we have another meeting next week, same time, 1 hour.