<trackbot> Date: 20 January 2015

<clown> agenda: this

<scribe> scribe: joanie

agenda order 5, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8

ACTION-1408/ISSUE-540: (Joseph) Email Jason Kiss about AAPI differences.

<clown> action-1408?

<trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that describes api differences. -- due 2014-12-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408

JS: This action is from a long time ago. Jason Kiss asked on one of the lists about the differences between accessibility APIs.
... Jason thinks there should be a section in the core AAM outlining the differences.
... This was assigned to me last Jan at the face to face.

<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2014Apr/0008.html

JS: I then asked about it here and followed up with Jason via email.

<clown> isseu-540?

<clown> issue-540?

<trackbot> issue-540 -- Should the UAIG have a section to describe the API differences -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/540

JS: The associated issue, is issue-540.
... Jason there mentioned the differences between OS X mappings for aria-label, aria-labelledby, and aria-describedby.
... At the last meeting, we all agreed to do this.
... Then we decided to ask Jason to do so.
... Jason agreed to take an initial stab at it.

(JS reads/summarizes from email)

JS: Jason wants us all to help him with our various platforms.
... Ideas?

JD: I think it's a good idea in general, but isn't that already addressed via the mapping tables?

JS: Yes, but I asked Jason and he suggested more text and suggestions would be helpful.
... I think it makes sense to invite Jason to join us at some of these meetings.
... Therefore, I'd like to close Action-1408 as done, leaving the issue (540) open.
... Then I'll reply to his email suggesting he go ahead and start, but see if he's able to join our meetings on occasion.

RESOLUTION: Group agrees to close action-1408 and follow-up with Jason. (Which Joseph will do.)

ACTION-1545: (Joseph) Editors' draft upddated: rowgroup exposed as "not mapped" for ATK/AT-SPI.

<clown> action-1545?

<trackbot> action-1545 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for atk/atspi is accurate -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1545

JS: This is just an update from last week.
... We had agreed that the ATK/AT-SPI mapping for rowgroup was "not mapped."
... The text is....

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup

JS: Now both ATK/AT-SPI and AX API share the "not mapped" mapping. This is not a change for AX API.

ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.

JS: Cynthia is not here.

Action 1320

action-1320

<trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320

JS: I think I left it there because there was discussion last week regarding whether or not Rich wanted an action to talk to Freedom Scientific about this.
... I'm going to move this back a week and bring it back in case richardschwerdtfeger is still here.

Action 1553

action-1553

<trackbot> action-1553 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553

JS: Ok, this makes perfect sense to me.
... I'll try to have this done for next meeting.

Action 1562

action-1562

<trackbot> action-1562 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="switch" -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1562

JS: There was a discussion about the name/value on switches versus toggle buttons.

JS and BG: When this first came up we had questions about why we need this role instead of switch.

JS: I forget the exact justification James Craig provided but I think he convinced me. :)
... I'd also like to see role toggle button in ARIA.
... I'd try to do this action too.

Bryan's Email related to native checkboxes and mixed state

<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Dec/0162.html

(Group reads email above)

JS: Native host semantics don't trump ARIA on states and properties.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_conflicts

JS: (Reads from above)
... So in this particular case (Bryan), if the HTML spec says you can't do that, then you can't do that.

BG: Does it say you can't do it?

<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/

JS: (Looks at input from above spec)

<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/forms.html#checkbox-state-%28type=checkbox%29

Allowed ARIA state and property attributes:

Global aria-* attributes

Any aria-* attributes applicable to the allowed roles.

JS: So I think your example with mixed is valid. I'd have to check it.

(Discussion about styling)

BG: It's a boolean property, so you can't do mixed/between them.

JS: Someone (Paciello Group?) has a document outlining suggestions about when it's best to use ARIA.
... And when the form is submitted, the ARIA value wouldn't be included.

BG: It's probably easier just to style it.

JS: In terms of the spec, it seems to be allowed.

BG: If that's true, it doesn't seem to be done correctly by any of the APIs.

(Group laments lack of tri-state checkboxes)

JS: (Reads from Alex Surkov's response on-list)

Menus

BG: On the authoring guide, we're talking about menus best practices.
... James and Matt believe persistent state menus should be allowed. I'm less certain.
... If you look at the UAIG, it says there are certain properties that only exist only when the menu is rendered.
... Does that sound accurate?

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_events_menus

JS: I don't know what the phrase "persistent menu" means.

BG: When you open the page, the properties are already there.
... You can get to them via the keyboard.
... But they're not dynamically rendered.

JS: So it doesn't behave anything like a menu.

BG: Correct.

JS: But it's declared as a menu.

BG: Correct.

JS: So your question is, is it going to fire these events?
... There's no menu-start event because it's always on -- or maybe it's there upon load.
... I'm using the MSAA event names btw.
... As you navigate the menu, it's supposed to fire focus events.

BG: I think that would fire correctly as you navigate into it.
... But there's no platform equivalent of automatically-opening menus.
... The other question they were asking was about the difference between a menu bar and menu.
... Because from this list it doesn't look like there's any differences in events triggered.

JS: Menu bars trigger the start; menus don't.
... If focus shifts to the menubar, that should trigger the menu start event.
... When you leave the menubar, the menu end event occurs.

BG: They were saying that functionally there wasn't any difference between the two.

JS: Do you have an example?

BG: I have a hypothetical one.
... James was talking about if you have a complex header navigation structure with nested lists, you could have role="menu" for each nested list.
... And you'd have role=menuitem for the links.
... The problem is that if you put role=menu on the ul, the structure is lost.
... Menus themselves are not identified like regions.
... So if you're in applications mode, you're fine. Otherwise you cannot tell where one menu ends and another begins.
... A header structure that's five levels deep with hundreds of items, and all you want is "login," that's really hard.
... What kind of API issues might be involved in doing that?

JS: I find it odd to call these things menus, myself.
... The point of ARIA was: You have some markup which was styled to look like menus and menu bars and it reacted to input events like it was a menu and menu bar.
... But there was nothing to tell assistive technologies that was what it was.

BG: Precisely

JS: But in this example, it doesn't behave like a menu to begin with.
... So why do you want to do this?
... James wants to move past them quickly?

BG: Yes.

JS: Is it a tree then?

BG: It's one flat series of links I think.

JS: Conclusion, I need to see an example.
... There's a lot to investigate.

BG: I think Matt built a small demo and it wasn't working for him either.

JS: Java Swing allowed you, if you had a menu popped open, to jump quickly by typing the name.
... Native Mac menus do this too.

<bgaraventa1979> sorry got booted

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Succeeded: s/See above/Reads from above/
Succeeded: s/structre/structure/
Found Scribe: joanie
Inferring ScribeNick: joanie
Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer Joanmarie_Diggs Bryan_Garaventa Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets: David_Bolter
Found Date: 20 Jan 2015
People with action items: 

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