<trackbot> Date: 13 January 2015

<clown> agenda: this

<joanie> scribenick:joanie

ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.

ACTION-1544/1545/1546: (Cynthia/Joanie/David) How to expose rowgroup role.

<clown> action-1545?

<trackbot> action-1545 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for atk/atspi is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1545

JS: Likely, the only one here who can say anything is Joanie.

RS: Is this where we decide if it goes to section?

JS: Might be. This didn't used to be mapped at all.

<clown> issue-635?

<trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635

JD: Why would we want to map this? We don't for HTML.

JS: I think at some point Mozilla decided to map it to group in IA2 at least.

RS: I don't know why; it just happened.
... Actually, it *may* be that Freedom Scientific asked for everything in the DOM be in the accessibility tree so they don't have to keep going back to the DOM.
... They want to try to get rid of that.

JS: The point of the accessibility tree is to not include things that are needed.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#rowGroup

JD: I'd like it to be not mapped.

JS: It's currently mapped to ROLE_PANEL.

<clown> scribenick: clown

JD: Panel is a generic group of stuff.
... You need a fairly predicatable accessibiltiy tree.

RS: What if we take role="section", and make it non-abstract.
... And then add sections to the tree.

JD: Tables do not contain sections, unless they are in a table cell.

RS: There is a <rowgroup> in html.
... If there is a need to map that to a role.
... Then, map it to a seciton, a generic container that has no real meaning.

JD: But a div is a block of text.
... I don't want this in a table heirarchy.
... I think the correct mapping of rowgroup is "not mapped" on ATK/AT-SPI.

RS: I don't want <div>s in the hierarchy if they are meaningless.

JS: A <div> is a generic container.

RS: You should just look at such <div>s and discard them.
... What does AX does this?

JS/JD: it's not mapped.

RS: We should ask Alex why rowgroup was mapped by FF.

<joanie> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html

JD: I have updated my action to say that rowgroup is not mapped for ATK/AT-SPI.

http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html

http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-tbody

<joanie> scribenick: joanie

JS: According to the above, (reads mappings for tbody)
... So why is rowgroup in ARIA?

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#rowgroup

RS: Alex. So people could create custom grids.

JS: I can see it for treegrids, but grids?
... I have my answer to ATK/AT-SPI2. Assign the action to me, Joanie, and I'll change the mapping
... I'll try to do this in the next week, so January 20th.

ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.

ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize.

JS: Cynthia is not here.

ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate minimal javascript at-spi2 test automation.

JD: I've not had time to get to this yet. Sorry!
... I'm pushing this back to 3 March as it's a nice-to-have.

<clown> action-1533?

<trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533

ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss role="group" at caucus telcon.

<clown> action-1515?

<trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-12-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515

RS: I was on the call, I'm trying.

JS: This was set to Dec 9th, so I thought we should re-raise it.

RS: I think Cynthia said we should get back to her in a month, so February.

JS: February 24th?

RS: If we can have these things be role of section. Then HTML5 section maps to section. Unless you put a label on it, you map it to role region.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group

RS: Div then would also map to this. It makes it very clean. There's some structure preserved.

JS: We're talking about the group role.

RS: On the Mac, AXGroup would then not be for every single div, etc.

JS: So you don't need to fix the mapping for group, but everything else that maps to group?

RS: On the Mac, yes.

<clown> issue-678?

<trackbot> issue-678 -- What is the ideal mapping for the aria group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on AAPIs, e.g., AXAPI and UIA. -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678

JD: I'm not sure it will be quite that straightforward on the Mac, but I agree that the approach makes sense.

RS: We need to have a chat with James about this.

RS and JS: Maybe we can discuss this at an ARIA call with him.

Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23

<clown> action-1320?

<trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320

Action-1320

JS: This was my attempt at coming up with a compromise.
... Firefox didn't want to take aria-hidden:false that it should be exposed in the accessibility tree if it had no display properties.
... The use case I provided at the time was that it was a better way to accomplish the off-screen stuff.

<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014JanMar/0001.html

JS: (reads text from above link)

RS: I've seen where aria-hidden is of value when it's true.

JS: Do you have any problem with a mismatch between the display properties and aria-hidden?

RS: You do have a mismatch already.

JS: They use an object attribute, but they don't remove it from the accessibility tree.

RS: ATs ignore it when they see aria-hidden="true". I don't know about false.
... Want me to ask Freedom Scientific?

JS: Sure

BG: Steve and James want a literal opposite of aria-hidden="true".
... So when you have something with display:none, aria-hidden="false" is still exposed to ATs.
... JAWS is already doing this. At least for IE.

JS: To follow-up, Firefox doesn't want to do it. So I asked them to treat it like off-screen positioning.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue-688/aria/aria.html#aria-hidden

JD: My problem with aria-hidden="false" is that it essentially forces screen readers to have some sort of alternative presentation.
... Because any screen reader which is relying upon presenting the content to the user as the user navigates via native user-agent support will never encounter aria-hidden="false" content.
... In the case of off-screen content, it's just a sad hack in my opinion.
... As soon as we bless aria-hidden="false", it's like we're saying it's valid and appropriate to have special, separate-but-equal content.

<clown> issue-688?

<trackbot> issue-688 -- Aria-hidden=false is ambiguous regarding inheritance to descendant elements -- raised

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/688

JD: And if that is done, screen-readers that do not provide a separate-but-equal rendering will seem "broken" wrt the spec.
... Thus you are forcing non-native interaction to be implemented for all screen readers wishing to be conformant.
... As a result, I find aria-hidden="false" objectionable. It is NOT the same as aria-hidden="true".
... For what it's worth.

RS: Do I have an action item to content Freedom Scientific or not?

JS: Ask if they want it offscreen or not in the tree.
... Offscreen is things like list items which are scrolled off screen.
... Another option is negative coordinates, so the sighted user never sees it. But the AT does.

BG: The use case for off-screen is the skip links.
... In that case it needs to be in the tree.

JS: I'll create an action some time tomorrow for you (Rich)

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/the want/they want/
Found ScribeNick: joanie
Found ScribeNick: clown
Found ScribeNick: joanie
Inferring Scribes: joanie, clown
Scribes: joanie, clown
ScribeNicks: joanie, clown
Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer Joanmarie_Diggs Bryan_Garaventa Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Found Date: 13 Jan 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/13-aapi-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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