Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 24 November 2014

<AH_Miller> For those who know Tony Graham, he now works for Antenna House

mgylling approve last week's minutes.

<ivan> scribenick: pkra

markus: no objections. minutes are approved.
... two topics: 1) Pagination & APIs (brad_duga)
... see link in agenda to wiki page

<bjdmeest> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements

<ivan> Brady's list

markus: figure out where we're going and what's needed to finish

markus: 2) latinrec, dauwhe about pagination
... etc.

brady_duga my attempt at outlining the issues a reading systems might have trying to implement on top of browser engine.

brady: these are those I've heard, seen discussions on
... not representative.
... some empty sections.
... need more fleshing out, outlines, diagrams etc.
... would like to see other implementors to add, object, correct.
... after feedback I'd like to go back and fill in details.

dauwhe: reminds me of interest for the IG. Quite a few of these requirements are about allowing the reader to change the aspects of rendering.

 one of *the* continuing challenges for ebook reading system since the early days.

<ivan> +1 to dave

       ... should the IG look into this more generally/specifically?
... allowing user control over presentation .
... user style sheets prove not powerful enough

brady_duga: for the general populace is interested in this for ebooks but less so for general websites.

       ...  in particular for a11y
... Definitely an important area.
... I tried to stay away from solutions, how to address these isssues as there usually are several directions for that.

astearns: thanks for this helpful document!

 re section "segmenting content". Is this for partial layout (from certain page on) or something else?

brady_duga: mostly memory. not loading everything on devices with small memory.
... e.g., King James bible
... but also load for chapter.

astearns: for pagination has several ways. Lack of css regions; there are good polyfills.

brady_duga: yes, css regions should be added.

 ... for overflow scroll. Are people using this? Do browsers have this?

dauwhe: didn't opera/presto do it?

brady_duga: right.

<Bert> (there was a special version of Opera available at some point. I still use it every once in a while :-) )

brady_duga: I will add overflow scroll not widely implemented and section on css regions.

tzviya a) personalization tools for ebooks are common to websites as well (e.g., font size)

  ... relative report: the discovery of changing font size on newspaper homepage can mean the world.

<Bert> (Actually, I think the last Presto-based version of Opera has it, with an -o- prefix.)

brady_duga Yes, should be added. Others (Night-mode etc.) is less common.

mgylling Q: does it belong in this document?

   ... is this specific to paginated media?

brady_duga: yes, this branched out to more problems of implementing reading system on top of browser

tzviya another one: citations / stable reference could be mentioned in this context

astearns user customization is more general issue but crucial in paginated views as it affects reflow / relayout has to be maintained.

brady_duga: in particular, page numbers can end up completely wrong after customization.

Bill_K: a) on personalization. in the ebook context, it tends to be done globally, not so much per document. This might be a difference compared to the web.

brady_duga: good point. However, e.g., font size might want to change depending on the book and its design.

Bill_K: right. Also context. On a treadmill, I'll increase font size.
... in scholarly context, another segmentation use case is keeping a particular piece of content fixed while scrolling through content.

brady_duga: I'll add that.

mgylling: brady_duga you asked for feedback from implementors. How do we gather this once the document is a bit more complete.

brady_duga: If people could take it back to their respective organizations. If you know an implementor, please hook us up.
... Readium, Apple, Adobe.

<Bill_Kasdorf> I'm hearing a lot of echo and feedback

brady_duga: if they're on the group, that'd be good.

Ivan: Apple is on, but time zone Canberra => difficult.

mgylling: should we start immediately or do you want to give it another pass first?

brady_duga: let's say 2 weeks until outreach (given it's Thanksgiving week)

mgylling: what are thoughts on the personalization in this document?

dkaplan it's fine in there. accessibility is one part of personalization. But treadmill example shows it's wider.

scribe: but we should talk to each other since a11y is critical.

(thx)

clapierre: agreed. Benetech is interested in both.

brady_duga: I'll do another pass, then reach out to the usual suspects. Does this need to be respec?

<dauwhe> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/#the-spatial-geometry-of-pages-spreads-and-bleeds

Ivan: let me know when you're at that point.

mgylling: moving on.

dauwhe: at last F2F I've added a section to latinrec about spatial geometry of pages (spreads, bleeds etc)
... just some basics (crossing the gutter, orientations, sizes, objects bleeding off the page etc)
... would like more examples on usual things in this area.
... in particular, pages of different orientation (e.g., table)
... what are the other circumstances we need to document?
... going back to the mothership jlreq.
... looking for examples: how running heads are positioned; what content appears (has come up on www-style again.
... in particular, special content (dates, filenames, stored inattributes, that needs processing)
...

         ... want to display machine readable content in human readable form.

     ... this needs some publishing use cases.

Bill_K: the difference between generated and literal text. often programmatic (Ch.Sec etc). In most books the text is too long, so publishers provide short forms so sometimes you need to access the shortened version, sometimes the actual content .

dauwhe: yes, I will add it.
... another issue unique to pagination: continued lines.
... can of worms but needs documenting.
... e.g. tables are split, headers are repeated, what gets copied from page to page, what isn't

Bill_K: another one is footnotes.

dauwhe: I'd be interested in examples.

Bill_K: important in legal

dauwhe: could you send a screenshot?

mgylling: tzviya might help.

Ivan: purely technical: the way you described the bleed seems bound to printed books?
... how is this relevant to digital publishing?

dauwhe: in general, relevant for digital publishing as we need to extend objects to the edge of the viewable area.
... this has held back higher-design ebooks since reading systems that add borders etc.
... also, latinreq is documenting print practices.

Ivan: the use case in this document is related to large piece of paper that is folded and cut.
... a use case for digital books would make sense.

Bill_K: the going past the page is a relict of print. You don't want to go over the edge but to the edge.

brady_duga: about bleeds. We have had some use cases where we had wanted bleeds.

tzviya: beyond diagrams, it might help the doc to describe things we can't actually do in digital.

<astearns> allowing content to extend past a scroll boundary is the digital equivalent of a bleed

tzviya: crossing the gutter we can't actually do in CSS.
... for bleed, we could have a diagram showing a table rendering
... with others we should point out it's not possible.

dauwhe: impossible examples are especially welcome
... will create mockups from tzviya's (coyprighted) examples

mgylling: any other examples we missed?

dauwhe: another huge area of examples (not books): office documents.

tzivya: will provide you with turned tables.

mgylling: ch4 will be expanded.
... @dauwhe is it complete?

dauwhe: it should be sufficient.
... another item from Santa Clara F2F, paginated digital environment might need different metaphor for arranging pages.
... ebook readers you often swipe in
... but in othersituations page might be below.
... discuss how pages are arranged.

mgylling: make sure a spread can be more than 2.
... make clear it's unbounded.

dauwhe: yes. Examples would be very valuable.

mgylling: next steps?
... when should we follow up?

dauwhe: mid-December sounds good.

<tzviya> +1

<astearns> +1

mgylling: Ivan and I are publishing the whitepaper we discussed.
... not perfect timing this week.
... but more outreach later.

Bill_K: can this be referenced public (talks)?

mgylling: yes.

dauwhe: re alignment between DPUB and epub-next.
... would be useful to focus on various aspects of epub-next.

mgylling: idea is if there's support for it from various stakeholders, then it's likely that the IG work will change a lot.
... one of those would relate to styling and layout.
... more bi-directional exchange.

Ivan: the document is on GitHub.
... community will (hopefully) give us comments, use issue tracker.
... iterate on the document
... and obviously DPUB is critical group of ppl for this.

brady_duga: did we settle on a day for next F2F?

tzviya: May 26, before IDPF conf at BEA at new Hachette offices, NYC.

dkaplan: is new antenna house member (Tony Graham) on the call today?

Tony Graham no but will hopefully join.

np