See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 18 November 2014
<clown> agenda: this
<dalek> exterminate
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
<clown> action-1528?
<trackbot> action-1528 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1528
JS: There's a new aria-current in
the spec.
... Briefly, if you're in a navigational structure like a TOC
off to the side, your current location is your place in the
TOC.
... You could also use it in a wizard or other step-by-step
process.
DB: Do we have a status role for that?
JS: We're not changing the role.
DB: I'm wondering if this could be done in another way.
JS: The GNOME people are going to go with ATK_STATIC_ACTIVE
https://bug740044.bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=290571
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: reads the docs on ATK_STATE_ACTIVE
Indicates a window is currently the active window, or an object is the active subelement within a container or table. ATK_STATE_ACTIVE should not be used for objects which have ATK_STATE_FOCUSABLE or ATK_STATE_SELECTABLE: Those objects should use ATK_STATE_FOCUSED and ATK_STATE_SELECTED respectively. ATK_STATE_ACTIVE is a means to indicate that an object which is not focusable and not selectable is the currently-active item within its parent container.
DB: regarding this change, you could still have a clickable thing be an ACTIVE thing?
JD: Sure.
DB: When you say, "objects should use ATK_STATE_FOCUSED and ATK_STATE_SELECTED respectively". Is that and/or or both?
JD: It can be either. Something can be unselected in a mult-select list box, but still focussed.
DB: does ATK have a multi-selected state?
JD: multi-selecatable.
... The new definition is to anticipate a complaint that isn't
aria-current just focused?
DB: who want aria-current, and what's it for?
JD: Here's my use case.
... <describes ordering online>
... <describles a wizard step-by-step process>
BG: Let me clarify. The primary
reason for aria-current is there are situations on the web
where an element is marked as current in a collection.
... It could be a list of items, or a group of images, or a
list of dates.
... Also pagination links, where one is current.
... There is not textual way to indicate which one is
current.
... Sighted users can see some sort of highlighting.
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: I'm looking for the aria-current spec text.
DB: I'm going through the process of, whenever you see a proposed aria attribute:
<clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Nov/0039.html
DB: 1) Is it really needed?
... 2) Is it as powerful as it can get?
... I think we have met 1.
... [Describes example in which a live region wouldn't
work]
JS: aria-current has nothing to
do with focus
... Go back to Joanie's shopping cart example.
... You're not focused on the step.
DB: I totally get that.
... The use case I'm trying to imagine is a web page in which
you might have one or more aria-currents on a page.
... I'm thinking of a dynamic page in which one or more
aria-current's change.
... So my example -- bad example -- is the colors of a legend
changing depening on what country you selected.
JS: The one (example) that was
originally proposed was for aria-selected.
... But that was rejected as being different.
DB: A screen reader has to know if aria-current changes for some reason.
BG: I don't think that's needed
necessarily.
... The author can surround nested regions with labels if
needed.
... It's obvious from the context that the element refers to
that region.
... So I don't think it's necessary to expose anything other
than that the element is current.
DB: Is there a situation in which some screen reader notices this is aria-current. Does it need to know the relationship between it and what makes it current?
BG: I don't think so. Dominic from Google mentioned it in the context in of shadow DOM.
JS: I mentioned aria-currentfor
if you have multiple aria-currents on the page
... But Matt, James, and others said it wasn't needed.
DB: Is it expected that you'll only have one?
JS: No, as far as I know that is not necessarily expected.
BG: [Agrees] but I don't think that's a problem.
JS: [Describes example of page with multiple portlets]
BG: I think it depends on context.
JS: I remember others saying that too.
DB: I'm just wondering about
getting people to use it.
... It has to be clear how to use it.
JS: True.
... aria-currentfor got dropped; aria-current is all we
need.
BG: Cynthia said she was going to try to put it in UIA in January, I think
JS: Is there something similar to
STATE_ACTIVE in IA2?
... ATK and IA2 are pretty similar.
DB: Does ATK have STATE_ARMED? Or was that Java?
JS: Java
JD: Actually ATK too, but it's stupid and I want it deprecated.
JS: The "it" there is ambiguous.
JD: [Makes no comment]
DB: So there's a STATE_ACTIVE, but it's about the active window.
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Years ago, ACTIVE was just
for windows.
... But then, it was modified to include
"sub-elements">
... We fixed the docs for ATK to clarify it.
... Couldn't we do the same for IA2 docs?
... It would mean little change to the IA2 implementation.
Note: IA2 documentations for STATE_ACTIVE is: "Indicates a window is currently the active window, or is an active subelement within a container or table."
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: We've been discussing this
for 1/2 an hour now.
... David should ask Alex Surkov about using STATE_ACTIVE in
IA2 for this.
DB: Agreed.
... I think I'll assign the action to him.
JS: The current due date is today. Next tuesday?
DB: Sure.
JS: In the States it's
Thanksgiving Holiday week.
... I'll be here. David will be here.
JD: I will be here.
BG: I'll be around on Tuesday.
RESOLUTION: We'll have a meeting next week as usual.
DB: When do we break for holidays?
JS: The 16th might be iffy for
me, though I'm not sure. I'll definitely be out on the 23rd and
30th.
... The above refer to December.
JS: Cynthia is not here
<clown> action-1529?
<trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
JS: This is mine because it was
originally Joanie's and she's done the work.
... Given her notes, I'm ready to add the mappings.
... I guess I need to wait until the other platforms.
<davidb> JD: what about Mac?
<clown> ACTION: James Craig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for aria-current. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> 'James' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jcraig, jhawkins2, jnurthen).
<clown> ACTION: jcraig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for aria-current. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1535 - Investigate the axapi mappings for aria-current. [on James Craig - due 2014-11-25].
JS: [Creates new action for AX API mappings]
<clown> action-1535?
<trackbot> action-1535 -- James Craig to Investigate the axapi mappings for aria-current. -- due 2014-11-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1535
JS: When Joanie passed back
action-1529, I wondere if aria-current should spawn an
event.
... In which case we need to add this to the event mapping
table.
... I brought this up yesterday at the meeting.
... James Craig thought we should make it a "MAY"
<clown> scribenick: clown
JS: ATK is going to just make such an event.
JD: That's not quite right.
<joanie> action-1529
<trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
JD: Well, there's the events
table (i.e. ARIA), and there's what is expected when the state
of an accessible object changes in <insert any ATK
implementation here, including desktop applications and
toolkits>.
... With respect to the latter, the expectation has always been
that as a general rule, when the state changes, a state-change
notification is expected.
... Otherwise, how is an AT on the platform to know?
... It says in the ATK documentation that implementors are
expected to provide notiifcations of state changes.
... ATK doesn't magically do the event. It is still expected
that the implementor will do the event.
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: When I said "ATK is going to
do this anyway" I really meant "A proper ATK implementation is
going to do this anyway."
... James Craig wants it to be a MAY because we currently have
no consensus that it's needed or wanted by any AT.
... Cynthia wanted it to be a SHOULD because she wanted it to
be stronger.
... I will put it in as a MAY for AX API and a MUST for ATK.
But that means we have different normative requirements for
platforms.
... I'm not sure what to do for UIA.
... Cynthia wants a SHOULD.
... James Craig went on to say that if this is useful and we
all agree, we can then change it to a MUST.
... In other words he's being cautious.
JS: We've been talking about
mappings for aria-current.
... We pretty much have ATK finished.
<clown> action-1527
<trackbot> action-1527 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the proper uia mappings for aria-current -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1527
JS: David is going to follow up
with Surkov on IA2.
... What should we use for UIA?
CS: Selection -- it would become
a selected item.
... Which means that it needs to have -- there's a container
that's required.
... I put notes in the bug.
... The closest thing we have is selected.
... But that means we need to have a container.
... I think this is related to what Joanie was talking about
the other day on the call.
... About traversing the tree, etc.
... I could ask for a new UIA API, but I'd need additional
justification for why this isn't selection.
BG: It is possible to have something with a current and a selected at the same time. And they wouldn't be the same thing.
CS: What's the difference?
BG: If you have a tree, and the current item in the tree is a book and there is a current page.
CS: That sounds like the difference between focus and selection
BG: When you're arrowing through
it, you can have something selected and not be current at the
same time.
... But one could be both selected and current.
... [Gives an example with JAWS]
CS: How does that work for
tabs?
... Or multiple selections in a listbox?
BG: With tabs you have aria-expanded.
JS: You can have multiple tabs expanded, but only one is selected.
CS: I was talking about browser tabs
BG: [example with remote callback]
CS: We already have focus and
selection.
... The difference between focus and selection seems to be the
difference between selection and current.
BG: This also applies to
static.
... People didn't want aria-selected because it's going to
cause confusion with interactive widgets.
... People will start putting it on the wrong widgets.
CS: Why is that?
BG: If you can put aria-selected on everything, people are going to start putting it on everything
CS: I think the best mapping in
UIA is going to be selected.
... I think that's what we do with similar native widgets in
Windows.
BG: [Asks about experience in Windows on calendar]
CS: [Describes it]
BG: So basically it's the distinction between selected and focused is not always the same.
CS: Correct. Selection and focus are not always the same.
BG: In the spec, there are many cases where they are the same.
CS: And in the mapping you'll see
that they are all different
... Sometimes they are the same, but not always.
JS: Can I break in to say the meeting is over?
BG: Can you post this (the Windows mapping) to the list?
CS: I can post that to the
list.
... I think I posted something last week, but I can do it
again.
... I think we've gotten as far as we can without further
input.
action-1530
<trackbot> action-1530 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate uia mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1530
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