Social Web Working Group Teleconference

28 Oct 2014


rhiaro, nickstenn


<dromasca> no way to limit broadcasting to groups, circles, etc.

<dromasca> fewer and fewer feed providers are supporting it now

<dromasca> Lloyd_Fassett - open source?

<dromasca> evanpro - not sure, gogle published only the spec

<oshepherd> I think once you reinvent it for ACL'd posts you might as well drop it and lose the complexit yand bagage

<MarkCrawford> With respect to the Federation Protocol, I would hope that we can define a protocol that can support multiple solutions and not limit to LDP or webmention or any other. There are those that are focused on OData driven solutions for outbound feeds and experimentation around federations.

<tantek> MarkCrawford: there are those using OData for their outbound feeds

<tantek> MarkCrawford: including SAP and Microsoft

<lehawes> Re SubPubHubbub: Lack of access control is a showstopper for social business

<dromasca> MarkCrawford - must it be based on LDP, or webmention - newer cases based on social data

<lehawes> To clarify on MarkCrawford's comment, the social data is published using oData

<harry> There was a conversation around mapping oData and RDF in W3C ages ago

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to reply to elf re: verifying relationships in a distributed social network, why we nounify things even like following

<harry> not sure where that went.

<dromasca> tantek - delayed response how to verify relations - every verb becomes a post - list of followers can be linked

<dromasca> evanpro - digital signatures can be another idea

<elf-pavlik> reminds me of hosted and signed assertions in https://wiki.mozilla.org/Badges

<dromasca> jasnell - many of these techniques based on pings / fat pings (content included)

<dromasca> evanpro - pompeio - inbox endpoint that you ping

<evanpro> pump.io

<dromasca> pumpio

<elf-pavlik> http://pump.io/

<dromasca> we're not ready, open to proposal, may need to wait til next f2f

<harry> ACTION: hhalpin to cycle with Wendy and Google on PUSH licensing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-6 - Cycle with wendy and google on push licensing [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-11-04].

<dromasca> Arnaud - what is the next step? not clear yet

<tantek> for federation, perhaps we can start a wiki page like we did for social api?

<evanpro> wow!

<evanpro> oshepherd: wow

<dromasca> harry - few suggestions - one draft on http-based api and a strawman proposal for federation

<wilkie> oshepherd: very nice!

<dromasca> ldp work , action handlers work already have owners

<elf-pavlik> jasnell, we never got to http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html#actions

<evanpro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates

<jasnell> elf: not yet. I believe we'll be talking actions in detail tomorrow

<evanpro> Micropub is on there

<elf-pavlik> jasnell, cool! :)

<dromasca> tantek - wiki page for api proposals - add more content?

<tantek> we have this now: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates

<harry> that wiki page looks like its covering everything

<dromasca> sandro - ldp only a place holder

<tantek> shall we start: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Federation_candidates ?

<oshepherd> pffft. EVERY TIME I need to log into w3.org on a new device I have to do the forgot my password thing

<dromasca> Arnaud - try to wrap-up

<dromasca> Arnaud - showing agenda for tomorrow

<dromasca> annotation wg - move to 3:30 (to avoid conflict w/ AC meeting)

<elf-pavlik> I wish you all nice dinner! :)

<KevinMarks> is agenda on wiki right for tomorrow?

<tantek> KevinMarks: yes

<oshepherd> I'll be back on tomorrow evening (afternoon your time, I guess). See you all tomorrow

<KevinMarks> so 9am start?

<evanpro> KevinMarks: what are you doing right now?

<evanpro> Come have dinner with us!

<harry> KevinMarks, do you have any recs for food in the area?

<harry> Faultline Brewery?

<evanpro> We need to find a place to eat nearby?

<AnnBassetti> trying to figure out a nearby place to eat

<elf-pavlik> tantek, thanks once again for setting up talky!

<KevinMarks> I'm having dinner at home shortly, sorry

<KevinMarks> hm, not many good palces over that side

<tantek> elf-pavlik: you're welcome! glad it worked out.

<oshepherd> Yeah, its 00:30AM here. I'll be back tomorrow after work :)

<KevinMarks> to eat there you're either in the hotels nearby or a drive into town

<tantek> KevinMarks: there's all the places in the Mercado Center too

<tantek> I think we're considering the Italian place

<tantek> forgot the name

<Lloyd_Fassett> Informal dinner right now at Tomatino 3127 Mission College Blvd, Santa Clara, CA 95054

<rektide> are the 0.8.2 consumer changes different than 0.9.0 consumer rewrite?

<Arnaud> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 28 October 2014

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: we did pretty good yesterday. We started out with a loose agenda but ended up filling the whole day. It is always hard at the beginning when we have no preset issues, so we did pretty well.

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: It is hard to solve a problem that is not well defined. When we talked about Social API, people don't really know what we mean - client or server. If we come to consensus, we can do a better job of solving defined problems. The IG has a broader scope for use cases, and can come up with use cases over time whereas the WG has to clearly identify what we want to focus on in a shorter period of time.

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: There is a feeling that the WG doesn't need to redefine use cases, but we should have a document that we can point to that identifies what we want to focus on. If there is a document that we can leverage, then fine, but we have to agree to do this.

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: The IG has agreed to initially focus on those that are most important to the WG. the IG report is not important, but we need something for the WG that we can point to that clearly identifies what we are working on and what problems we are trying to solve.

<MarkCrawford> elf: - Tanteck is not here yet

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: identified use cases prove extremely useful as we move forward to develop our deliverables. This issue came up several times yesterday which just reinforce my thinking.

<MarkCrawford> Sandro: do we need only 3 or so valid use cases to do our work?

<Loqi> wseltzer meant to say: rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight

<AdamB> can somebody throw in here the link to the swat0 use cases sandro mentioned?

<MarkCrawford> Sandro: a paragraph or so should be sufficient for each use case

<elf-pavlik> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0

<rhiaro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0

<AdamB> thanks elf!

<AdamB> and others!

<rhiaro> elf-pavlik: What's the talky address?

<AnnBassetti> elf -- we're going to try to get you going with Talky

<AnnBassetti> I have a web cam

<Arnaud> ok, we're trying to get talky set up

<elf-pavlik> Thank You :)

<MarkCrawford> elf: the presentation we are about to see is in the IG wiki main page

<elf-pavlik> http://talky.io (room: socialwg)

<lehawes> Link to IG presentation is http://www.w3.org/wiki/File:Social_IG_TPAC_Update.pdf

<elf-pavlik> MarkCrawford, got it!

<elf-pavlik> thx lehawes!

<rhiaro> elf-pavlik talky should be good to go

<rhiaro> \o/

<elf-pavlik> i'll just watch and listen

<elf-pavlik> pleaes go on!

<elf-pavlik> no worries

<elf-pavlik> we can sort it out during coffee break

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, I see slides directly from pdf

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Social IG Update. Agenda is to talk about work that has preceeded us, review our charter/scope/deliverables, give status update, look at example use cases and next steps.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: slide 2 - review Pre-IG use case work. Social Web Incubator Group has 5 years of effort and at least one solid use case in their final report.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: the other very influential report is the Cloud standards customer Council which has 4-5 solid use cases.

<AnnBassetti> elf, OK .. trying to show you the person presenting ... in this case Larry Hawes .. guy in blue shirt, dark hair

<MarkCrawford> Larry: we have also brought in those already identified by the WG as well as some of our own.

<elf-pavlik> perfect! thanks AnnBassetti :)

<MarkCrawford> Larry: slide 3: charter and scope. Chartered to deliver use case report by 12/31/2016. Intend to harvest existing and produce new use cases that illustrate non-technical requirements.

<AnnBassetti> elf, any idea why my video is split?

<elf-pavlik> no, but let's just roll with it for now

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Slide 4 Deliverables. Use Case and requirements report; Social architecture report (Leveraging Headlights report); social vocabularies inventory.

<AnnBassetti> ok, sorry

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Slide 5 - Membership. Enough to get good work done

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Slide 6 - Process.

<MarkCrawford> Sandro: When is the IG meeting this week?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: during the ad hoc time today

<elf-pavlik> it wasn't me!

<elf-pavlik> ok, good luck with overcoming those issues!

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Slide 7 - Status. # meetings, task forces. Scenarios are just a narrative for use cases. Use Case is more detailed per our template which will give us a formal way to document and publish them.

<elf-pavlik> I'll keep an eye on the room! you folks can got out get some fresh air :)

<AnnBassetti> can you hear, elf?

<MarkCrawford> resuming

<MarkCrawford> still on slide 7 status

<elf-pavlik> yes i can hear

<AnnBassetti> we have the doors open, behind me ... is there too much ambient noise

<elf-pavlik> i can hear good (even better than yesterday!) video got frozen though

<MarkCrawford> Larry: working to categorize use cases and we have a first stab at that on the wiki

<AnnBassetti> hmm .. I see people moving on video

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Slide 8: just read

<AnnBassetti> elf, do you need me to restart video?

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, yes please

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Slide 9 - Next steps: discussed

<AnnBassetti> hmm .. maybe I need to drop off and come back in

<harry> LarryHawes: Going over a slide-set describing use-cases

<harry> ... see wiki for updates

<MarkCrawford> Larry: switched to wiki and discussed how you can find the use case TF from the social ig wiki.

<elf-pavlik> sandro, can you unmute yourself so i can hear?

<harry> ... most of focus on profile federation and social data syntax use-cases

<elf-pavlik> please :)

<elf-pavlik> thx!

<harry> ... we want to work on API and Human interaction, but that's next

<harry> MarkCrawford: We've created a few links to non-existent wiki pages

<harry> ... we will create web-pages in the wiki

<harry> ... and use blanks to refine categorization

<harry> ... currently red ones are from the W3C Headlights report

<harry> ... there's a bit of duplication, will try to refine it.

<harry> LarryHawes: Jump to the use-case themselves

<elf-pavlik> sandro, please mute again :)

<harry> ... mapping to the CRUD framework

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, can you unmute please? :)

<harry> ... social profile creation

<harry> ... its in the template

<AnnBassetti> done

<elf-pavlik> great! thank you :)

<AnnBassetti> can you hear?

<harry> ... narrative, actors, goals of actors, success scenario, success criteria, failure criteria

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Social Profile Creation Use Case. We want your feedback on both the template as well as the content.

<harry> ... feel free to give us input on the template itlsef

<AnnBassetti> now there's a big fan behind me .. is that too noisy?

<elf-pavlik> a bit but not a big deal

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Social Profile Creation wiki page

<sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF/Profile_Use_Cases

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Working with an openID model around social profile creation such as google that could then be federated to other social profile maintainers.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: Noted Success Scenario and Success and Failure Criteria.

<MarkCrawford> Not crazy about verb: federate.

<MarkCrawford> Sandro: copied or mirrored

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, can you ask tantek to mute?

<MarkCrawford> Harry: do you want to copy, open, or share?

<harry> copy on request to another system or automatically update other systems?

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, your laptop has better sound then tantek's webcam

<MarkCrawford> James: should at least spell out the different options

<AnnBassetti> ok

<AnnBassetti> better?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: some could have graphic representation. We also need to add id for original submitter.

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, yes and with 2 cameras i can now see everything :D

<AnnBassetti> yes, cool

<MarkCrawford> ?? How do we get comments?

<AnnBassetti> I wish I could zoom my view

<elf-pavlik> + remote control ;)

<jtauber> :-)

<MarkCrawford> use cases need to be on individual wiki pages, have comment section, and tolerate inline changes to leverage wiki concept

<cwebber2> oh, are we still doing our meeting today?

<cwebber2> I guess everyone else is at TPAC

<elf-pavlik> https://talky.io/socialwg

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, join us :)

<MarkCrawford> Larry: federation of Profile Information to a nNew Network or System.

<jasnell> Mark: there are two James' in the room :-) ... please show my comments as jasnell to differentiate

<MarkCrawford> Larry: read Social Profile Updates UC

<MarkCrawford> Larry: read social Profile Deletion UC

<dromasca> +q

<harry> elf-pavlik, feel free to type question as well

<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss any implementations we derrive usecases from? eg: PLP has one https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF/Profile_Scenarios#Portable_Linked_Profiles

<elf-pavlik> http://www.open-steps.org/introducing-the-new-open-knowledge-directory-with-plp-profiles/

<MarkCrawford> elf: we have a prototype for the use cases here, wondering if we have others to compare?

<elf-pavlik> we have implementation and i wonder about other implementations

<MarkCrawford> Larry: elf is pointing to a scenario, not something in our UC format.

<elf-pavlik> so we can compare and test interoperability

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: I don't understand elf's point.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: this is detail oriented, but not UC

<elf-pavlik> do we track somehow implementations?

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: I am interested in - we just saw an overview of what we saw as profiles. Is that capturing what we are thinking, or is there others that we also need to capture so that my problem can be solved.

<MarkCrawford> ?? Does profile include privacy options?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: It should, and i think we tried to capture.

<MarkCrawford> ?? I define privacy as between the owner and provider.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: No, we don't currently capture that?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: we have not yet gotten to requirements out of these yet. My vision is you build high level use cases and then build requirements out of that.

<MarkCrawford> ?? Is your federated system considered an n to n type of relation?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: that is an implementation choice and there should be a way to control

<dromasca> ?? = dromasca

<MarkCrawford> james: so, the actors in this case we cant create or delete and the system controls. We may be the subject, but not the owner. there is an additional role - profile owner might be the providor.

<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask how this connects to identity, and changing identity

<Loqi> dromasca meant to say: ?? = dromasca

<cwebber2> whoo, finally connected

<elf-pavlik> hi cwebber2 :)

<MarkCrawford> Sandro: the way I think of profiles as different than this. Profiles as the art of identity. The way I talk about people is their profile. You frmaed this as like facebook. What are the identifiers?

<rhiaro> So profiles are for personas rather than persons?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: We do not plan to touch ideentity. there is a relationship between these.

<AnnBassetti> cwebber2, can you hear OK?

<cwebber2> yup!

<AnnBassetti> cool

<MarkCrawford> evan: I want to express concern about identify management, it is a big topic that has been addressed by other organizations and we may want to defer.

<MarkCrawford> Ann: won't be solved here.

<sandro> +1 harry: avoid use of the word "identity", and just deal with profiles

<MarkCrawford> Harry: I have a simple rule - dont use the word Identity as there is confusion when it is used. littany of organizations who deal with this. For this particular use case the word profile helps clarify that we are talking about editing and sharing profiles.

<MarkCrawford> Harry: access control is something that is very hard.

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: Charter did not address the access control issue because it could be a rat hole so we agreed that we would only address requirements/use cases. Next version of charter can address once we are clear on what we are concerned with.

<AnnBassetti> can you guys hear Tantek? (at far end of room from me)

<elf-pavlik> good enough

<AnnBassetti> good

<MarkCrawford> tantek: I share evan's concern about the use of the word federation. Need to be more clear about what you mean. A lot of us use more specific terms like syndication which is much more specific.

<MarkCrawford> tantek: pushing or pulling is something you can implement to.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: I hope it would be as we do requirements as to what choice we are making. We are purposely trying to find a vague term and once we get to requirmements we can refine.

<MarkCrawford> Larry: may be a difference between business and development.

<MarkCrawford> tantek: whatever thing you are federating, you use the same identifier for that across the network.

<MarkCrawford> tantek: phone number and email are examples of federation across networks

<MarkCrawford> tantek: example of breaking federation is twitter t.co. that is not federation as it breaks the identifier.

<sandro> tantek: It's only federation if you're using the original identifier

<MarkCrawford> tantek: both openID and indiauth use the same identifier.

<MarkCrawford> Evan: we have different ideas about this.

<MarkCrawford> sando: is there another word?

<MarkCrawford> tantek: looking it up in the context of technology passport and passport number is an example of federation across countries.

<MarkCrawford> me: tanteks vision strikes me as a federated network for a specific id rather than a federated profile.

<MarkCrawford> ann: trying to understand the distinction between identifier and federation. IDs like phone number, passport number use to identify me, but I don't see that as federated. the example I have in my brain is where we all create our user profile in boeing where the sys creates a generic profile and the subject can then amplify. We then have sharepoint which creates a separate profile. We want to create where sharepoint pulls the profile.

<sandro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_%28information_technology%29

<MarkCrawford> Tantek - that is not federation, its centralization.

<MarkCrawford> Ann: I don't understand how the passport is federation and not identification

<elf-pavlik> tantek, maybe worth capturing your point somewhere in https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Hypotheticals

<harry> I think Tantek has a very good point BTW

<elf-pavlik> or https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Federation

<MarkCrawford> action - need to define what we mean by federation

<trackbot> Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<harry> i.e. decentralized creations of identifiers that are accepted across different systems

<harry> but arguing is hard

<MarkCrawford> Ann: we need to collectively define.

<AnnBassetti> and have consensus on our use of these terms

<evanpro> ISSUE: need glossary for terms used in use cases e.g. "federation"

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-5 - Need glossary for terms used in use cases e.g. "federation". Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/5/edit>.

<Zakim> AdamB, you wanted to share that within the enterprise its common that people have the same identifier / identity across systems

<Zakim> EdK, you wanted to say that business use cases can extend beyond the internal company, i.e. collaborations beyond (in response to AdamB

<dromasca> +q

<dromasca> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-scim-use-cases/

<AnnBassetti> MarkC: I want to know, as we share profiles across systems, that we have commonality on profile component definitions

<AnnBassetti> Ann: yes, we will come to the day when we have external partners and suppliers logging in at our firewall

<AnnBassetti> ... and we will need to federate profiles in each direction

<tantek> when two or more orgs agree to federate, they agree to treat each others' identifiers as first-class citizens, use them directly, and expect that users on each system may use them directly, without requiring "local" wrappers/versions of each identifier.

<MarkCrawford> all - for the last ten minutes my typing was not posting in irc. If you spoke, please enter your comments in irc so we don't loose them

<MarkCrawford> Larry: now that we have a better understanding, we can refine what we are doing.

<AdamB> It’s interesting the different perspective that a corporation brings to these situations. Corporation have one unique identifier for an employee, the ‘employee identifier’. That identifier is used in all the systems I use throughout the course of the week so identity isn’t nearly as much of a problem for corporations.

<MarkCrawford> Evan: I want to get more involved

<elf-pavlik> MarkCrawford, cany you copy paste from your machine?

<dromasca> we seem to be talking about federation of identity information - not all belongs to the social space

<dromasca> i posted the url of prior art work in the scim wg in the ietf - http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-scim-use-cases/

<tantek> Examples of federated orgs and identifiers: phone companies & phone numbers; email hosts & email addresses; countries & passport numbers

<tantek> Non-example: US social security numbers: single provider, many consumers.

<AdamB> There is what we refer to as Human Resources (HR) data and then user provided data. A person cannot delete their HR data but can remove their user provided information.

<EdK> EdK discussed that primary "federation" is about profile information between dissimilar systems, primarily between business collaboration efforts e.g. suppliers, university partnerships, etc. This IMHO is beyond identity - for example SKILLS is a profile component, not an identity component.

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: before we leave, we need to talk about the next F2F meeting. I am hoping that what we have already accomplished these two days convinces folks about the importance of F2F meetings. Perhaps a two day meeting is most reasonable.

<tantek> half-way examples: OpenID and IndieAuth - many *providers* of OpenID & IndieAuth identities, however, not all *providers* also consume all identifiers from other providers.

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: The F2F is hosted by one of the WG members. Provide a meeting room big enough for the number of expected participants, food, etc.

<hadleybeeman> annbassetti/tantek: Passports are a particularly good example, because they're issued by multiple authorities (countries) and recognised/used by multiple entities (other countries).

<MarkCrawford> Ann: we should be fair to geographic considerations. I need to get permission before I can commit.

<MarkCrawford> Sandro can also volunteer

<elf-pavlik> fair to geograhic considerations - Europe? ;)

<MarkCrawford> Tantek: if folks don't show up they feel left out.

<rhiaro> +1 Europe :)

<MarkCrawford> tantek: Sandro suggested that we try to co-locate with e.g. an IndieWeb camp.

<cwebber2> if doingit near MIT, might be interesting to do it near libreplanet

<cwebber2> time-wise

<MarkCrawford> general back and forth on different locations

<cwebber2> some relevant people might already be in cambridge :)

<elf-pavlik> pool?

<AnnBassetti> thanks Tsyesika

<cwebber2> (libreplanet is the FSF's conference)

<AnnBassetti> are you, cwebber2?

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: not trying to settle anything yet. Question is timing. List of possible dates and locations.

<cwebber2> AnnBassetti: I'm not in cambridge, but I will be for libreplanet

<rhiaro> tommorris and oshepherd are also Europe I believe

<AnnBassetti> aha

<elf-pavlik> oshepherd?

<jasnell> how many days? 2 ...? with possible interop event included to test implementations?

<tantek> welcome bret on talky!

<MarkCrawford> evan: Perhaps align with due dates when we are expecting to have somehting like a federation protocol that we can discuss?

<harry> It's about 8 folks from Europe, 6 folks from Asia/Austrailia

<bret> You are not getting sound from me right?

<MarkCrawford> ?? Doodle poll?

<elf-pavlik> +1 pool

<AnnBassetti> Harry, and, how many from NAmerica?

<tommorris> rhiaro: I've resigned from the WG for personal reasons, but thanks for the thought.

<Tsyesika> bret you're muted if you're the person who just joined :)

<MarkCrawford> Harry: typically WGs do 6 months.

<bret> cool

<bret> (sometimes my mic still makes noise on Zakim if I mute client side.. no idea why)

<MarkCrawford> Harry: we should rotate so we are not geographically biased.

<AnnBassetti> bret, we're not using Zakim

<Tsyesika> I vote march around the same time as libre planet

<cwebber2> I'm going to be proposing a federation hackathon at libreplanet, for those who might be there

<Tsyesika> as I'm likely to be in boston then

<cwebber2> evanpro: maybe we should coordinate on doing such a thing

<evanpro> cwebber2: that'd be nice

<KevinMarks> I'm about to head over to the location.

<KevinMarks> Should I bring my external mic for later on?

<harry> Mostly

<bret> KevinMarks: yeah audio is pretty rough

<elf-pavlik> KevinMarks, do you have mic with protection from wind?

<MarkCrawford> general discussion around dates.

<evanpro> cwebber2, Tsyesika: that's the end of March, too far out

<lehawes> First week of February in Cambridge, MA works fine for me

<KevinMarks> There is wind? I normally put a towel over it for that

<cwebber2> evanpro: gotcha

<cwebber2> I can probably make something in feb in cambridge also

<tantek> First week of March is better for me

<evanpro> ISSUE: make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next F2F

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-6 - Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6/edit>.

<MarkCrawford> discussion around providing virtual attendance capabilities for future meetings

<elf-pavlik> let's do next one in summer europe then :D

<elf-pavlik> second next

<tantek> Cambridge MA is fine, also I can host in San Francisco at Mozilla SF for early March.

<rhiaro> elf-pavlik: +1

<rhiaro> Summer in Turin

<elf-pavlik> +1 Turin

<MarkCrawford> evan: How do we push to a decision point?

<MarkCrawford> Larry: don't we need to include those not here now?

<MarkCrawford> arnaud: we need to make sure this is minuted and broadcast so that objections can be raised.

<AnnBassetti> dromasco says there was good WebRTC support for remote participation for joint IETF / W3C meeting

<MarkCrawford> tantek: wants to keep first week of march on table.

<AnnBassetti> we need to find out how they did that

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud: we can have poll

<MarkCrawford> Arnaud to take action to set up doodle poll with different options

<Arnaud> ACTION: arnaud to set up a doodle poll for next F2F, with 1st week of Feb and March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Set up a doodle poll for next f2f, with 1st week of feb and march [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2014-11-04].

<jasnell> q

<MarkCrawford> Evan: suggest we have as a minimum the chairs and editors can make it to the meeting.

<jasnell> q

<elf-pavlik> can't hear now...

<MarkCrawford> We will resume at 3:30

<tantek> background reading before joint meeting with annotations WG at 3:30: http://indiewebcamp.com/marginalia and http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions

<KevinMarks> Yay for fragmentions

<KevinMarks> (biased, me?)

<bret> heh, probably a little

<AnnBassetti> you folks on the camera ... I have to go to AC meeting .. break now, then others will have task force meeting.

<AnnBassetti> they'll use Tantek's camera

<AnnBassetti> see hyou later

<elf-pavlik> thanks AnnBassetti have a good AC meeting!

<bret> which camera is pointing at the projector? seems to be the most clear

<elf-pavlik> bret, frozen one? :D

<bret> well frozen now. Was working earlier

<elf-pavlik> really, stayed frozen for me all the time ...

<bret> weird

<bret> webRTC is funky

<tantek> cool - looks like I confirmed with elf-pavlik that we're live

<elf-pavlik> tantek, unmute?

<tantek> I'll be leaving that connection in the room for the next 4.5 hours but won't be here in person

<elf-pavlik> yes

<oshepherd> Of all days why did my Occulus Rift have to turn up today? :p

<elf-pavlik> oshepherd, you want 3D stream?

<oshepherd> elf-pavlik: No, I want to play with it :p

<elf-pavlik> well you have your chance now for a bit...

<oshepherd> Hah it'll probably take me that long to get it set up

<bret> oshepherd elf-pavlik pair it with https://www.flickr.com/photos/bretc/15466384617/

<oshepherd> bret: WTF is that?

<bret> 360 webcam!

<oshepherd> hah

<elf-pavlik> cool! put it on a drone and fly around room ;)

<evanpro> On the subject of use cases, I added a couple of links to the wiki

<evanpro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF/Social_API

<elf-pavlik> we do it now?

<elf-pavlik> i just listen

<rhiaro> scribenick: rhiaro

lehawes: Offical meeting of use cases TF begins
... goal to talk about AS scenarios

EdK: Talking about internal and federated

lehawes: How will AS be used within Ford?

EdK: Information streams, by IBM & Ford. Unique value proposition of social platform. Connecting people who don't normally connect, and to connect people with information that they wouldn't normally have connections with
... Nodes aren't just individuals, but the information itself
... Driven from core applications within the company, where information posted from the system itself, rather than by individuals
... eg. all data centre incidents get published (server down, network congestion etc)
... this information published into a stream as events
... once issues are known, reduces calls to helpdesk

<jasnell> for those joining remotely... we're doing a quick ad hoc Social IG meeting. The full WG meeting is reconvening at 3:30 pacific

<lehawes> Thanks jassnell!

EdK: Also, if system posts there's an outage somewhere, somebody elsewhere is having the same issue, which allows issues being tracked and eg. escalated to global vs local

<lehawes> To clarify, this meeting is the Use Case Task Force subgroup of the Social IG

EdK: Need to bridge between social discussions around things, and the system itself. System doesn't have a concept of the social interactions going on
... The social thread becomes an important part of how the system functions

<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss tracking implementation efforts for use cases we gather and prioritizing them accordingly

<elf-pavlik> i see it important that we track implementation efforts for use cases and prioritaze them accordingly

<lehawes> go ahead elf

<elf-pavlik> in WG we need feedback from people who implement AS etc.

<lehawes> elf: who is "we"

<elf-pavlik> if no one implements use case i would prioritize it lower

<elf-pavlik> ok

jasnell: For every use case, identify someone doing osmething with it - bit early

EdK: Proof of concept not necessarily implementation

<lehawes> elf-pavlik: Understood and agreed on prioritization. I think we're too early in process to begin doing that now, but should happen later.

<jasnell> right now we're in the process of identifying the use cases. Documenting implementers comes next. It's still too early and would be counterproductive to focus on implementations too much at this point

EdK: Four or five procurement systems in use. The person making a request sends an email to someone who puts it into the system, then a buyer gets involved, then there's a finance system, then a recieving system
... The person who needs the item isn't a part of any of those systems. So can't subscribe to notifications from those systems.

<lehawes> Reminder to self to harvest EdK's procurement use case from Social Business Community Group's work

EdK: Security/authorisation issue in large companies.
... So subscribing is one part in the social system. Further, actions that can be taken on things in the stream
... Using an embedded experience to grab data (if allowed), preserving the original security around the data object
... Then to be able to take action about something with the same system, is beyond the normal definition of a social system
... Notion of priorities in AS. If you're expected to take action, you need to be actively notified, not just see it by chance in the stream.

<lehawes> For those just joining the #social IRC chat, this is an ad hoc meeting of the Use Case Task Force of the Social IG. We're having an informal discussion of Activity Streams 2.0 related use cases until Noon'ish.

EdK: This is from the social business community
... It was a proof of concept, not finished building.

<lehawes> Sounds like use cases should be focused on core functions of AS2

Lloyd_Fassett: Sounds like AS didn't have priorities, and now it does, that was the gap.
... The standards we're discussing are generic, not specialised, but a hook for a specialised vocabulary
... Specialisations like domain expertise
... But currently no way to hook that into AS?

jasnell: That's what JSON-LD context is for
... you can have multiple contexts
... publish specialised vocabs in a public location and add it as a context. Reciever can't necessarily do anything with it, but it can be processed

KevinMarks arrives!

<elf-pavlik> R2-D2 style mic ;)

Lloyd_Fassett: So we need to delineate types of use cases
... We're not going to worry about vertical issues, specialisations

<lehawes> elf-pavlik: yes, it's quite shiny too!

<dret> big question is: will AS2 *require* JSON-LD context mechanism, or allow the AS1 way of using terms. my preference would be to allow but not require JSON-LD contexts, and have a registry for namespaces so that people can make their vocabularies know to the world. these may be described in the JSON-LD way, or like the AS1 vocabulary: as a simple list of terms annotated with human-readable descriptions.

jasnell: Two camps of consumers with JSON-LD
... some people just want JSON
... some people want semantics

<lehawes> elf-pavlik: Good. Sorry, but we tried to make it better for you. :>)

<elf-pavlik> thanks! much appreciated :)

jasnell: We can have a publisher of an AS document write a document in more than one way. comes out the same regardless of whether you use JSON-LD
... People looking at things from a pure JSON point of view can't interoperate, because every consumer has to understand JSON-LD
... there's code available, it's not too difficult
... but people who just do json might not like that
... Some clients only care about one endpoint, so they're going to write their client to interoperate with that endpoint
... and that's fine
... if they want to optimise so they're only parsing json, that's fine
... Publishers can add JSON-LD augmentations or not. It's the consumers who have the problem, not knowing what they'll be consuming

<elf-pavlik> in which cases exactly one can't treat JSON-LD as JSON? (not AS1 JSON)

KevinMarks: Adding more constraints doesn't necessarily make things work properly

jasnell: Key thing is we can't target / make it easy for both camps
... (recognising that not everyone will be happy)

<dret> all of this will need to be answered in the processing model section of the AS spec: as a generic client, when you see AS data flowing by, what can you say about it? and also: in which ways can you rewrite AS data (as an AS proxy) without changing what it means?

<KevinMarks_> adding JSON-LD extra to a JSON structure is fine, but requring them to be correct makes this much harder

<lehawes> dret: thanks for injecting that into the meeting record!

<jasnell> the key challenge is that if we allow publishers to use JSON-LD mechanisms, consumers MUST be capable of processing those, or we break interop

<dret> elf, JSON-LD always is JSON, of course, but for somebody with JSON-LD goggles, the world looks different. if you want to see the world the same way, you essentially have to implement JSON-LD.

EdK: Client-side resolution starts sounding like aggregation. Talking about resolving things into a thread so that the conversation makes sense. Keeping the social fabric seperated. It's useful to end user, but not to overall enterprise

<KevinMarks_> jasnell if you MUST the LD parts you break interop directly

EdK: So question becomes: where is the connection between the system and the social?

<elf-pavlik> dret, even if we recommend always using JSON-LD compacted with AS2.0 context?

<jasnell> publishers are not required to use the LD stuff

<jasnell> they MAY

EdK: Direction of discovery is an issue. User has to find something vs thing finding user through system

<dret> jasnell key question is if AS2 allows free-form JSON as AS1 did. this would be invisible to consumers with JSON-LD goggles.

Lloyd_Fassett: That's data-first. Kind of different from this group, which is profile-first

<KevinMarks_> I thought JSON-LD was supposed to add context, not remove it

<elf-pavlik> dret, can you post some concrete examples to mailing list?

<jasnell> the AS2 @context maps unknown properties to blank nodes, so they are at least preserved through the expansion algorithm

Lloyd_Fassett: In data first, define the data well, and add the social layer on top

lehawes: To bring this back to AS, jasnell: are there specific use cases to help move forward
... ?

jasnell: No

<dret> jasnell if you say MAY JSON-LD, then JSON-LD is out of the picture in the processing model section, and there's just an appendix that explains why the base syntax supports JSON-LD, but processors have to be prepared to deal with any JSON. that will make life hard for people working with JSON-LD toolsets, because they cannot assume to always see everything through their JSON-LD goggles.

jasnell: Where we use AS, it doesn't matter if it's coming from a system or a person. Something happens and we need to let people know what happens based on their relationship to the actor or the object
... Entry point to a workflow / starting point to an interaction

<KevinMarks_> are these old use-cases relevant? http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=Examples

jasnell: I have to know what's going on in order to be able to respond to what's going on
... AS is a lower priority than actions. Acting on something in context is the next step
... Right now, push notifications send an action, but use their own format. Needs mapping to Android, iOS, webapps, etc. Need a consistent model for this.

EdK: Once you get to that, you want the response mechanism as well
... to also be consistent

lehawes: So you would see this task force focussing on the actions / embedded experiences use case, rather than sharing the stream?

jasnell: Sharing is pretty well defined
... AS is the latest iteration of this, been working on for years
... We don't need to worry about documenting use cases for AS itself
... But for embedded experiences, potential actions, we do
... need use cases
... This will be discussed more this afternoon.

lehawes: Any other comments?

Lloyd_Fassett: There are actions at the AS 2.0 level, then there are embedded actions?

jasnell: They're basically the same
... AS lets you attach a Potential Action to any Activity
... eg. potential http request or opening a browser view
... describes specific actions (or commands) that can occur
... eg for carrying out a like or a follow

Lloyd_Fassett: Can't that adapt to a market place scenario?

jasnell: Yes, that's one of the use cases being worked on
... where multiple third parties make offers, and how you handle it depends on who is providing it, but it's all tied to the same 'offer' action

EdK: It's the same offer, but if you already have a relationship with someone it might be different to if you don't - but implementation worries about that. 'Offer' action is the same

lehawes: Food market scenario can be fleshed out to become a use case
... by Lloyd_Fassett

jasnell: another use case is pushing to mobile devices
... pushing an activity out as a notification
... We want to be able to integrate with notifications without having to write extensions to the mobile device APIs
... Need simple declarative ways of describing what an action is supposed to do

KevinMarks: At the moment this is done by people embedding forms and iframes

jasnell: Currently you can say eg. you do a share by embedding this html
... if it's a browser view, you do a share by opening this window
... if it's a REST API, you do a share by passing these params
... etc.
... Currently no standards for deep linking
... Every platform does it differently, and 3 or 4 competing efforts
... 4 different for Android currently in use

lehawes: We need actions use cases
... Post scenarios to turn into use cases please!

<oshepherd> Not sure what you mean by "4 competing efforts" on Android for sharing things

Lloyd_Fassett: Could flesh out with jasnell if time

<oshepherd> Erm, you fire off an ACTION_SEND intent

<KevinMarks_> on android, you can claim http URLs as intent from an app; the OS manages contention - on iOS you need to define your own protocol per app and there is no contention resolution

Lloyd_Fassett: it is a real-world scenario

<oshepherd> KevinMarks_: Only if you're explicitly targetting another app. On Android sharing is a part of the platform

lehawes: We can get multiple scenarios around the same concept that can be normalised into one use case

Lloyd_Fassett: To do a marketplace you probalby need JSON-LD

jasnell: yes, for domain specific information
... There are existing vocabs out there

<KevinMarks_> on android, my app can claim http://twitter.com/*

<KevinMarks_> the OS will manage contention over them

<elf-pavlik> FYI http://blog.schema.org/2012/11/good-relations-and-schemaorg.html

<KevinMarks_> on iOS behaviour is undefined

<oshepherd> KevinMarks_: But claiming URIs isn't at all involved in the process of "sharing" things

Lloyd_Fassett: MarkCrawford says vocab task force should create a list of vocabs

<oshepherd> To share things on Android you send an ACTION_SEND intent without a URI

lehawes: Watch out for licensing issues

<KevinMarks_> see http://epeus.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-apples-ios-fragmentation-problems.html#connect+between+applications

lehawes: but they should be on the list so we can eliminate things
... so put everything on the list
... might get ruled out, but don't have that constraint building list
... Time to wrap up!

<elf-pavlik> for finding vocabs: http://lov.okfn.org/dataset/lov/

<KevinMarks_> share is an OS verb on android that anyone can hook; on iOS this was hard-coded, just changed a bit

Lunch time!

<elf-pavlik> enjoy your meal everyone!!!

<lehawes> Thanks everyone for your thoughts around scenarios and use cases related to action-oriented aspects of AS2!

<KevinMarks_> "Note: If more than one third-party app registers to handle the same URL scheme, there is currently no process for determining which app will be given that scheme." https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/iPhone/Conceptual/iPhoneOSProgrammingGuide/Inter-AppCommunication/Inter-AppCommunication.html

<oshepherd> KevinMarks_: Yeah. There seemed to be insinuation that there were ~4 ways to share things on Android. Maybe I was misreading the conversation

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, still with us?

<elf-pavlik> Tsyesika, online?

<Tsyesika> yep

<elf-pavlik> great! :)

<elf-pavlik> i prepare comparison of actions in AS, schema.org and Hydra

<elf-pavlik> and may use example of movie review with rating

<elf-pavlik> do you have review/rate feature in MediaGoblin?

<Tsyesika> not at the moment, just commenting

<Tsyesika> would be a good feature to have

<elf-pavlik> schema.org uses such example in their docs http://schema.org/docs/actions.html 'Example: Movie review site API with -input and -output'

<elf-pavlik> cool, once i have it published maybe you could give me feedback?

<Tsyesika> okay, how long until you publish

<Tsyesika> you cought me as i was going off for the evening :P

<elf-pavlik> oh, please just go ahead :) anytime in next days will work just fine!

<Tsyesika> okay cool :) feel free to ping me on here or via email and i'll pick it up tomorrow :)

<evanpro> I added a diagram to the wiki

<evanpro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/54/Social-api-layers.png

<Tsyesika> i think chris will be around later too

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: oh hi

<evanpro> Which I think might be useful to guide our ideas about the Social API

<cwebber2> I didn't realize things were continuing, opening back up

<elf-pavlik> ok, have a good one Tsyesika!

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: I did get your email btw

<cwebber2> and will respond to it... I just got back from another conference

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, no rush!

<elf-pavlik> evanpro, looks cool :)

<evanpro> elf-pavlik: it is!

<cwebber2> evanpro: elf-pavlik: btw, I know it's maybe not directly in the scope of this working group, but I wonder if maybe it would be good to get feedback from here, esp from those with experience

<cwebber2> tsyesika is currently overhauling our db schemas to handle the additions of federated activitystreams stuff

<cwebber2> it's quite a lot of stuff to figure out how to handle moving this into a relational db design, especially given that simple foreign key patterns don't work anymore once you're about to link to just about anything (though we have some ways around we're investigating)

<elf-pavlik> evanpro, do you understand my point with advantage of hypermedia controls over arbitrary paths like /evan/notes /evan/images /evan/friends /evan/meals /evan/books etc. ?

<cwebber2> I'm not sure if there's anyone with experience or interest who might be interested in reviewing... it could be helpful, also, for mediagoblin to write up how we handled the schema in a relational db so other implementers can reference it

<cwebber2> I realize that's out of scope of the wg specifically tho :)

<evanpro> elf-pavlik: yes I absolutely do

<evanpro> I think that's an API design issue that we'll need to address

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, please send it directly to WG (implementers) list, i don't see it out of scope at all!

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: okay, great!

<cwebber2> Tsyesika: ^^^^

<evanpro> The big advantage of arbitrary paths is that it's what social developers are used to

<cwebber2> we'll talk tomorrow about doing that

<elf-pavlik> in silo environments ...

<evanpro> Yep

<elf-pavlik> similar as symetric relations like friends, we will face some need to change our way of thinking in federated environment

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: not sure where the arbitrary paths bit is being referenced from, but I agree it is important if I'm reading right

<elf-pavlik> but i do get your point about people currently having certain expectations to APIs

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, we had this conversations yesterday, sorry for mixing conversations ...

<cwebber2> esp since projects that are trying to add federation later may have their own URL schemes

<cwebber2> ah :)

<cwebber2> apologies if I'm jumping in unhelpfully

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, i recommend watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkAt9XSOfaE

<elf-pavlik> also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB94dIamAQc

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: okay, will watch... maybe tonight when unwinding :)

<elf-pavlik> much shorter :D

<elf-pavlik> second just 7min and IMO very relevant to MediaGoblin!

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, James will talk about Actions during next session - this 7min vid can give you great intro :)

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: aha, great! Tsyesika and I were trying to see how we might make use of them

<cwebber2> am I right that in some ways they could be useful as a kind of flip side to webintents?

<elf-pavlik> also Caley may solve your issues with relational database ...

<cwebber2> ie, webintents has a user say "I want to favorite with this" whereas this might mean between services "you can favorite this with our tool here"

<cwebber2> ?

<cwebber2> I guess I can wait for the talk :)

<oshepherd> How long until the next session? 15 min?

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-27#Tuesday_28_October_-_With_breakouts

<oshepherd> Currently geting a bunch ofn oise over the talky. elf-pavlik, an issue on your end?

<elf-pavlik> no session now

<elf-pavlik> next one in ~3h i think 15:30 their time

<oshepherd> Yeah, thats why I presume you, they're offline :p

<oshepherd> Maybe try muting yourself?

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: great video, thank you for sharing :)

<elf-pavlik> welcome :)

<elf-pavlik> relevant to GMG?

<cwebber2> highly, I think!

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: one thing we have been figuring out how to deal with is that many mediagoblin sites can have different media types supported

<cwebber2> and those media types may be configured to have certain features on / off

<cwebber2> so you can't assume

<elf-pavlik> for example?

<cwebber2> this seems like the perfect way to broadcast what without assuming

<elf-pavlik> with hypermedia you just include supported controls so client app will not expect features you don't provide!

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: well, the different media types is an easy one: we have images/video/audio/documents/3d models

<cwebber2> ascii art ;)

<cwebber2> by default, only images is turned on

<cwebber2> but

<elf-pavlik> yes, so audio would have 'listen' control and video 'watch' for example

<cwebber2> right

<cwebber2> there are some features, like geolocation support, which aren't on by default also for images

<cwebber2> but you can turn them on

<cwebber2> geolocation is a bad example, there are better, but I'd have to look at the config specs since I'm very jetlagged :)

<cwebber2> but you get the idea.

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, do you have some form of collections / albums ?

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: we do, they're a bit crude, but we have a collections feature

<elf-pavlik> BTW i think we SHOULD extract some use cases based on GMG features!!!

<cwebber2> :D

<elf-pavlik> expecially if you will work on implementing stuff and providing much needed feedback

<wilkie> yes, real-world implementation use-cases are great

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: http://mediagoblin.com/u/cwebber/collection/mediagoblin-rewards-2014/

<cwebber2> a collection

<elf-pavlik> wilkie++

<Loqi> wilkie has 2 karma

<cwebber2> could be better

<cwebber2> but they're there

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: I've somewhat wondered how we're going to express different media types with federation

<cwebber2> we already have some... I mean, audio / video are represented

<cwebber2> but stuff like presentations aren't.... I've figured json-ld will help make this cleaner

<cwebber2> but one thing that the actions stuff seems to make really appealing is that it removes the assumptions/guesswork from stuff like audio / video playing

<elf-pavlik> we can create types for them, for example sub types of http://schema.org/CreativeWork

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: ah great :)

<wilkie> they should be extensible enough. should be able to create an arbitrary object type. "image", "displayName" and "content" are all generic for all objects in AS and can be used to kinda represent them on systems that don't know what those object are.

<wilkie> and they you'd have a link to the actual content which is navigated in the normal way or something

<cwebber2> so actually

<cwebber2> one thing Tsyesika and I are discussing that I think is going to be cmplex

<cwebber2> complex

<cwebber2> is assuming you do something like youtube-style "subscriptions" in mediagoblin

<cwebber2> or even adding media on different domains to collections, etc, other federation examples

<cwebber2> if you click a thumbnail to a federated video, for instance

<cwebber2> will that destroy navigation locally?

<cwebber2> there are a lot of UI decisions we're going to have to make... at the moment, I've assumed those are outside of the WG

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2 i think James will present embeded experiences during next session :)

<cwebber2> but maybe if other people are thinking about these things

<cwebber2> oh great!

<cwebber2> stellar

<elf-pavlik> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-actions.html#dfn-embeddedview

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: btw, you may be interested

<wilkie> oh yeah, embedded views are possible. but even in the low-tech minimal sense, a thumbnail that navigates is not that bad I don't think.

<cwebber2> that Tsyesika is collecting her research as she goes at https://theperplexingpariah.co.uk/GMG/mediagoblin_research.html

<elf-pavlik> from old draft: http://elf-pavlik.wwelves.org/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-actions.html#embedActionHandler

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, thanks for link!

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: yup

<cwebber2> maybe we should be getting more in the habit of Tsyesika and I discussing some of the federation implementation issues in here as we run into them

<cwebber2> as well as on the list, obviously

<cwebber2> :)

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, please do!

<elf-pavlik> otherwise if you two plan to figure it all out on your own, please let us know so we stop wasting our time and find something else to do ;)

<oshepherd> cwebber2: BTW, as somebody familiar with the Pump API, you might like my WIP soon-to-be submission: http://oshepherd.github.io/activitypump/ActivityPump.html . Comments very much invited :-)

<cwebber2> elf-pavlik: haha :)

<cwebber2> no, I think we'd prefer to work together :)

<oshepherd> elf-pavlik: I'm not sure if you're aware but GMG is going to implement the Pump.io API at the present moment in time

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2++

<Loqi> cwebber2 has 2 karma

<cwebber2> we're already in process of implementing it

<cwebber2> or rather, Tsyesika is in process

<cwebber2> but we intend to support the social wg specs, assuming all goes well :)

<elf-pavlik> IMO implementing Pump.io API as its stands now can give very useful input to Social WG work!

<cwebber2> enjoy your typing break ;)

<evanpro> oshepherd: I'm interested in your thoughts on https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/54/Social-api-layers.png

<oshepherd> evanpro: My concern with all resource-based direct updates is when do these turn into activities, or, more importantly: do I do a thing and that generates an activity, or do I post an activity and that does a thing?

<evanpro> Yep

<evanpro> It's confusing!

<oshepherd> I kind of feel that it should be "You do something, that generates an activity", because that makes all activities not special

<evanpro> At least with pump.io a POST to /user/evan/following will generate an activity

<oshepherd> (hard to concentrate on things when new toy is screaming at you "play with me!" :p)

<evanpro> No way

<evanpro> Cool!

<evanpro> What do you do with it/

<evanpro> ?

<oshepherd> evanpro: Its' only just arrived, so mostly set it up so far :p

<evanpro> oshepherd: I find it really interesting but don't know what I'd do with it

<oshepherd> Maybe if I ever find the free time (HAH!) I'll develop something for it...

<oshepherd> In the meantime its' squarely in the "Play" category

<jtauber> I haven't done anything interesting with either of mine (DK1 and DK2), but here are my (ongoing) notes in case you're interested (although most of them are about the DK1): https://thoughtstreams.io/jtauber/oculus-rift/

<oshepherd> Oh FFS energy companies are useless "Heres your bill. You can pay it online" Great! Whats my account number? -_-

<oshepherd> Like, seriously, why is my account number not on the bill?!

<oshepherd> Hurrah! Of course its' hidden in the small print about paying by telephone

<rektide> thanks for the great post, departed evanpro

<oshepherd> jtauber: I'm fortunate enough not to wear glasses

<jtauber> yeah, it's tough with them

<oshepherd> One of the game demos I tried put a reflection of your face in the field of view. That was quite cool

<oshepherd> (your avatar is wearing a helmet, so it makes physical sense)

<rektide> evanpro: thanks for the great diagram! really enjoyed seeing something

<evanpro> rektide: I hope it informs the discussion

<evanpro> rektide: by "mentions" do you mean the type of thing where I say "@rektide good idea!" and it goes to a special stream that shows all posts that mention you?

<wilkie> that would get filtered through the general inbox for activities?

<wilkie> although you probably want a route to pull all mentions that have been filtered "/evan/mentions"

<evanpro> Right

<wilkie> seems like an optional thing for implementors

<wilkie> since it is more server->client than server->server syndication stuff

<evanpro> So it's probably worth breaking this kind of thing up

<oshepherd> I think filtering should be orthogonal to the general API

<wilkie> I agree

<oshepherd> /evan/inbox?type=Mention&type=Like or whatever

<evanpro> That's an interesting idea

<wilkie> it's possible that "mentions" is a completely separate feed, and thus a whole other object and thus a unique resource

<oshepherd> You should be able to request filtering from any API endpoin (and the server should also be free to ignore you)

<evanpro> I don't know where to capture this stuff

<wilkie> but filtering of any particular feed, yeah, would be good

<evanpro> OK I started here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/API/Layers

<wilkie> it's the kind of thing that you'd want to subscribe to... "/evan/activities" where activities are posted articles

<wilkie> so in that case, it is server->server facing hm

<rektide> evanpro: yeah, external resources with inbound linkage

<rektide> wilkie: i think /evan/mentions might be a candidate collector for mention resources, but otoh i'm not sure why individual resources wouldn't expose their own mentions collector

<wilkie> if you want to filter a feed, you'd do it as a query like oshepherd suggested

<evanpro> Mentions really breaks down to two different important actions

<oshepherd> TBH I think that "mentioning" somebody is really just cc:ing them

<evanpro> One is sending someone a note or image or whatever "@oshepherd check this out!"

<evanpro> And the second is search and monitoring, "Who is talking about me?"

<rektide> i don't feel like /evan/inbox is a good permenant resource for the mention... where does it really get filed?

<oshepherd> rektide: In your inbox. Everything gets filed in your inbox

<evanpro> Not all social software conflates the two

<rektide> oshepherd: ahh ok. sorry, not quite up to speed /w ya'll across the board.

<rektide> evanpro: agreed with your breakdown

<oshepherd> rektide: Just think of your "inbox" as your feed (what you see on the homepage of facebook or twitter or whatever)

<wilkie> a "timeline"

<wilkie> or whatever

<evanpro> Right

<evanpro> "Stuff by people I follow, or in groups I'm a member of, or sent directly to me, or by me"

<evanpro> Roughly

<elf-pavlik> next session in 20min ?

<evanpro> I don't know if anyone else saw this great infographic on Web Annotations

<evanpro> http://www.w3.org/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg

<evanpro> But I really like it

<jtauber> that's great!

<elf-pavlik> evanpro, when do we start?

<evanpro> elf-pavlik: I think 3:30PM PDT

<evanpro> Roughly

<elf-pavlik> in ~10 min

<KevinMarks> now

<cwebber2> should we be joining talky.io?

<cwebber2> I see a potted plant, at present.

<KevinMarks> we're in the other room - the #annotation one

<evanpro> So we just moved into #annotation

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, yes i wait for someone to start it in the room

<evanpro> People who are participating remotely may want to join that

<evanpro> Since someone is scribing there

<cwebber2> great

<bigbluehat> hi new friends!

<KevinMarks> can you scribe in 2 rooms at once?

<elf-pavlik> hi #annotation :) hey tilgovi!

<KevinMarks> I could noterlive...

<evanpro> We're not scribing here

<KevinMarks> slides for #annotation http://www.w3.org/2014/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg

<elf-pavlik> could someone start https://talky.io/socialwg ?

<evanpro> So please come to #annotation

<tantek> we're asking to scribe in here

<tantek> we are scribing here

<KevinMarks> who will annotate the annotators?

<azaroth> ScribeNick: nickstenn

<evanpro> !!!!

<tantek> because #social folks are split across rooms

<tantek> physical rooms

shepazu: we have a charter that contains a number of things
... some deliverables we hope we don't have to make and #social will make instead
... want to explain what we're trying to accomplish overall for annotations
... [presents diagram of "Web Annotation Architecture"]
... this is an attempt of a description of what we hope to see as the overall architecture
... everything starts with someone creating some content

<KevinMarks> http://www.w3.org/2014/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg is diagram if you just joined

shepazu: content creator sends content to a publisher (maybe the same person) who publishes it
... footnotes and comments may be added to the document
... comments aren't in separate documents
... another role -- a reader -- who can annotate documents
... can annotate footnotes or comments
... they target a discrete selection within the document
... support for overlapping annotations
... annotations aren't supposed to live on the same document
... when I submit a comment to someone's blog, I'm implicitly entering into a creator-publisher relationship with the blog owner
... we think it would be more interesting if an annotator can publish their own annotations without the say-so or involvement of the publisher/creator of the document
... we also want the ability to notify a publisher of annotations made on their documents

<raphael> s/Topic: Joint meeting Social-Annotation WG/Topic: Joint meeting Social/Annotation WG

<Loqi> raphael meant to say: RRSAgent, draft minutes

shepazu: annotation services provide a way for readers to discover and subscribe to annotation content on the web
... the aim is a distributed mechanism for creating, storing, and discovering annotations
... we introduce another character, the "sharer"
... people can share the annotations [as first-class entities]
... and there's a chain of attribution

<Loqi> nickstenn meant to say: ... and there's a chain of attribution

James Snell: this is a perfect use case for the stuff we're looking at

scribe: this flow here fits in perfectly with what we've been talking about

??2: i'll run through a status update on what [social] have been working on

<harry> s/??e/Evanpro

<KevinMarks> ironically can't annotate that presentation with fragmentions as it's in SVG

<evanpro> http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/

harry: mark crawford is chair of interest group

mark crawford: we have a template for use cases

scribe: on the wiki
... you can fill that out, add any figures you want

evanpro: social ig/wg chartered in july

<Loqi> tilgovi meant to say: I don't have to escape those ?s do I? This isn't regex?

evanpro: social ig is working on use cases and issues around social and identifying ways the w3c can be helpful in this space
... three main deliverables

<KevinMarks> Loqi is logging

<shepazu> Social data syntax

evanpro: 1) social data syntax

<shepazu> Social API

<shepazu> Federation protocol

evanpro: 2) social api
... 3) and a federation protocol
... 1) is a repr of activities (status updates, etc.) that happen in a social context -- changes to the social graph, content creation, content replies, etc.

<tilgovi> This link (appears first above) is to slides being summarised right now: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/

evanpro: it's a syntax that's JSON(-LD)
... just went to FPWD with activity streams 2.0
... activity streams is a subject-verb-object structure "Evan - posted - this image"

<KevinMarks> Loqi is the social logging bot for indieweb et al - generates nice HTML logs http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#bottom

<raphael> Activity streams 2.0 FPWD at http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/

evanpro: 2) social API -- a client/server HTTP based API that will use the social data syntax

<AnnBassetti> elf, setting up talky right now

evanpro: there's a client embedding API

<Loqi> Loqi has 314 karma

evanpro: we are currently in the process of developing this social API
... working off existing work that came out of open social, and a number of other social APIs
... goal is to get social API to a WD this quarter
... 3) federation protocol -- a syndication of activities across different security domains
... if I generate a number of activities that I'm storing in a social store
... people will be able to follow me remotely and receive updates on those activities -- under my control
... aim is to have a well-documented mechanism to transfer social data between different locations
... we could walk through the Web Annotation Architecture, but a lot of people in the room can probably see where they fit pretty quickly

shepazu: everything that's not at the document level is a pretty obvious fit
... i want to call out the work we're doing that you're not
... we're defining a data model that says what an annotation is
... also working on serializations

<KevinMarks> people like JSON-LD?

shepazu: working on the piece that links to a specific part of a document -- what we're calling robust anchoring

<cwebber2> yes, I like JSON-LD

tantek: some of the work on webmention may have overlap on that as well

<cwebber2> it solves a major problem for us

james snell: we're not modelling the specific content types so this fits very well for us

<elf-pavlik> thank you AnnBassetti :)

<Loqi> AnnBassetti has 1 karma

AnnBassetti: [introduces people from Europe on a webrtc link]

fjh: I want to know what the actions are when we're done discussing

shepazu: at the very least we should be giving [social] some use cases

james snell: we're looking for feedback on our FPWD

<tilgovi> elf-pavlik et al, video laptop just lost power, coming back momentarily

tantek: hi, I'm the co-chair of the social WG
... one of the inputs to the federation protocol is webmention
... [demos a note, with a bunch of comments that have come into the site via the webmention protocol]

fjh: is this an open-source implementation?

tantek: [demos an example of a reply made using an open-source implementation hosted on someone's own site]
... the other example you're probably more interested in is marginalia

<AdamB> sorry guys, lost power on the webcam

tantek: Aaron Parecki combined webmentions with fragment identifiers to create "fragmentions"

<raphael> Second demo link is https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia

<evanpro> Aaron Parecki

tantek: [shows example of inline margin comment, published again on someone's own site, but which makes reference to a specific location in a published document]

shepazu: I'd like to see what the next steps look like

<tantek> elf-pavlik: so far no JSON-LD needed for webmention comments, or marginalia, or fragmentions

<cwebber2> may very well be needed for adding new media types in mediagoblin, etc

<cwebber2> or, at least, keep various identifiers in the json from being lonnnnng

fjh: why do you folks need use cases from us?

James Snell: we can look at it and see if our stuff [Activity Streams] fits what you're doing

<tantek> In summary - I showed this post with favorites and reposts and comments federated via webmentions: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/15/3/border-none

harry: we can formalise the relationship between the WGs if there are clear dependencies

fjh: there may be some of our standards effort that overlaps with social APIs, and some that doesn't

<tantek> and then I showed Marginalia: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia and the annotation on this fragmention: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##So+if+you+sent+a+webmention posted on another site here: https://kylewm.com/2014/06/this-is-super-exciting-great-work-building-it-and-a-real-testament

<harry> Social IG for use-case discussion is Wednedays at 10:00 AM

<harry> Eastern (biweekly)

fjh: is fragmentions something you're looking to standardise?

<harry> Social WG (focussed on ActivityStreams and specs) is Tuesdays Noon Eastern

<harry> See web-pages

<harry> www.w3.org/Social/WG

<harry> www.w3.org/Social/IG

<tantek> KevinMarks - came up with fragmentions after attending the Annotations Workshop in April

<tantek> see http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions for the spec

KevinMarks: came up with it after I Annotate 2014. it was the simplest thing I could think of which addressed the problem of identifying a part of a document.
... so far it's just on the IndieWebCamp wiki

<KevinMarks> it was the annotations meeting in April that inspired fragmentions: http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html#quotation+from+the+work http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html

TimCole: there are potentially issues with fragmentions (IP, overloading the meaning of fragment identifiers, etc.)

shepazu: the way fragmentions and what we're looking to do dovetails is as follows
... you currently need a javascript library to make that work
... one possibility is that we standardise a "find text" in page API

tantek: hasn't been proposed for standardisation, but it is CC0, on the web

<tantek> and interoperably implemented

<tantek> see http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions#Open_Source for implementations

<KevinMarks> there is a prior art discussion at http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention#Related+work

<AnnBassetti> Lloyd Fassett

Lloyd_Fassett: there was a mention of if someone liked "Ice Cream" they could follow "Ice Cream" ... what are the proposals for that?

someone: probably a throwaway comment we can ignore

<AnnBassetti> elf , did you want to be on queue?

<Loqi> nickstenn meant to say: someone: not sure that we have an answer for this

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, just Zakim not present when fjh tried get on queue...

<Loqi> fjh meant to say: q?

<AnnBassetti> aha

sandro: is there a nominated liaison between the two groups?

<elf-pavlik> +1 liaison

azaroth: we have no invited experts at the moment, but this may be an opportunity to add one

<scribe> ACTION: identify a liaison between the two WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'identify'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<harry> I believe we just nominated Kevin Marks

<harry> or as he prefers to be called in IRC, KevinMarks

<scribe> ACTION: KevinMarks to act as liaison between the two WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Error finding 'KevinMarks'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<elf-pavlik> KevinMarks, your w3 nick?

<KevinMarks> kmarks2

Arnaud: there's a pretty big overlap in general, not restricted to robust anchoring

<elf-pavlik> ACTION: kmarks2 to act as liaison between the two WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Error finding 'kmarks2'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

fjh: maybe just Evanpro and I should just talk and arrange the liaison we deem appropriate

<trackbot> Sorry, raphael, I don't understand 'trackbot hates nickstenn :-)'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

Arnaud: it's good we've identified the overlap early on

<trackbot> Sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't understand 'trackbot says Loqi s/LOL/:D/ ??'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

tantek: it'll be interesting to see how the overlap pans out, as the social WG is focused heavily on use cases, user scenarios, whereas you are starting from an abstract model

azaroth: we have discussed use cases at length in the CG, it's simply that we're not going to be rediscussing those in the WG

<AdamB> http://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/

James Snell: I can take an action look at the existing data model and see how it fits

<KevinMarks> this wiki looks a bit blank: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_Annotations

fjh: we'll get back in touch before our next call

<AnnBassetti> ACTION: James Snell will look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work and Activity Streams [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> 'James' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jsnell, jktauber).

<bjdmeest> https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Main_Page

azaroth: I'll take the corresponding reverse action to look at Activity Streams 2.0

<azaroth> ACTION: azaroth to look at the Social WG FPWD [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Error finding 'azaroth'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

Arnaud: where are you in terms of legacy, backwards compatibility problems?
... in social WG we have some issues around this -- that's why it's Activity Streams 2.0

<tantek> FYI: here is a permalink to the start of our joint meeting and minuting between #social and #annotation: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#t1414535621356

<elf-pavlik> ACTION: jasnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: ACTION: James Snell will look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work and Activity Streams

<elf-pavlik> ACTION: jsnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [on James Snell - due 2014-11-04].

azaroth: we're in pretty much the same situation -- two groups originally that joined forces in 20xx and published a joint spec for data model and serialization (no APIs)
... we have free rein for the HTTP API and client-side/server interactions
... looked at several platforms, including Annotea, which we eventually abandoned

<azaroth> http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea/

<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about existing deployed protocols

sandro: are there protocols that are currently being used being by products in this space?

azaroth: nothing beyond basic REST APIs afaik
... multiple ways of doing search

<tantek> in the social realm, we have interop across many implementations with Webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention

<tantek> in terms of a protocol

sandro: we'd like to know what you need from the protocol in this context?

Evanpro: we need to wrap

*: thanks all round

<AnnBassetti> talky guys ... I'll reconnect in other room

<elf-pavlik> #social as:<3 #annotation ;)

<EdK> scribenick EdK

<Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014#Session_Grid

<EdK> Wed morning 9:15 am unmeeting with schema.org

<EdK> jasnell: opensocial embedded experience was an input

<EdK> primarily built around a gadget model

<EdK> jasnell: not sure anyone is interested in continuing to use the gadget model

<EdK> potential actions like a share is something could to with content

<EdK> then a set of actions of what should happen

<EdK> for example call out a deep link in a mobile app

<EdK> a simple action like Share could be done with simple declarative syntax

<EdK> the user experience would be a buoon - a share or like button

<EdK> then it could open a view, like a browser view

<EdK> the media type will define what is embedded, like a video

<EdK> embedding a script tag is far more common

<EdK> jasnell: where different actions might be done, open a browser view, a native mobile action,

<EdK> want to embed with the content so the . can choose which to use

<EdK> it would be that the implemetner could leverage the options, or could ignore them and do their own thing

<EdK> these are the publisher's options, the things teh publisher says you could do with it

<EdK> decoupled this, comapred to Embedded Experience in OpenSocial which was tightly tied

<EdK> the details about whatr you are embedding isn't part of this

<EdK> could be web component, iFrame, scripts, a number of different ways

<EdK> in current editors draft is an "expects" property, which is a variety of additional metadata

<EdK> but this overlapw with other work like hydra

<EdK> dow we want to define or leverage other prior work

<EdK> can designate the sandbox policy

<EdK> the activity vocabulry defines the model for this embedded view, it does not define the share action

<EdK> reference yesterday can verbs be just nouns, would make this quite a bit easier

<elf-pavlik> linke to presentation?

<EdK> can have an activity statement like a share, currently activity being modeled different than a potential action

<elf-pavlik> http://tpac.mybluemix.net/as2.html#19 ?

<jasnell> http://tpac.mybluemix.net

<elf-pavlik> jasnell, cool! thx

<EdK> Sandro: difference wouldn't be noticed by user

<EdK> jasnell: right, the implementor determines

<EdK> this is something that needs to be worked out, should there be a ui ...

<EdK> jasnell - basically what potential actions can be done aganst a containing object, it doesn't matter what the object is (images or whatever)

<EdK> query the data store gets the actions along with it. the action data travels along with it.

<EdK> Sandro: how close to running code?

<EdK> jasnell: some is running now

<EdK> evanpro: support 3 basic actions share like and comment, this could be a big payload to pass along, perhaps not attach to each and every payload

<EdK> an event with rsvp options, a poll that could be replied to, games, whater

<EdK> s/whater/whatever/s

<Loqi> EdK meant to say: an event with rsvp options, a poll that could be replied to, games, whatever

<EdK> some security issues with accepting a url from someone else, action syas use this to open something else, etc.

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2 do you get audio/video?

<cwebber2> I'm getting audio, no video

<cwebber2> on the room

<cwebber2> I see you

<AnnBassetti> I had to reconnect .. lost you

<EdK> jasnessl: no standard way to do a Like, if we had a standard, thenw e could pass it without the identifiers. but there are too many to accomplish, so could do the basics and then detail teh others

<AnnBassetti> oh yeah? I don't see you

<AnnBassetti> more important you see the room

<cwebber2> I don't see the room but I see elf-pavlik

<AnnBassetti> rats

<cwebber2> AnnBassetti: thanks for handling the recording btw, greatly appreciated

<cwebber2> I'll reconnect

<AnnBassetti> my pleasure; it's a drag to be remote

<EdK> another alternative is to have a thing we can do like, share, comment. a get would say what these actions are

<EdK> could use whitelisting, haven't found a better solution yet

<cwebber2> there we go, looks fine now

<AnnBassetti> roger dodger

<AnnBassetti> except I don't understand why I have split screen

<AnnBassetti> oh well

<EdK> dret: I see repeating these actions over and over could be noisy, but if push to type, then can teh client infer that. if not, then they can't tell waht action to do for an activity.

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note existing implementations

<EdK> or ATOM pushes something into the feed, discussed that its been done in several ways, need to solve so we don't attach 20 actions and send around

<elf-pavlik> dret, have you looked at http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/ ?

<tantek> indiewebcamp.com/webactions

<EdK> tantek: in webcamp have a lot of experience, not theoretical, done over more than a year

<EdK> displaying page noted in irc

<Loqi> AnnBassetti meant to say: oh well

<Loqi> it'll be ok

<AnnBassetti> hmm ... now why?

<EdK> tantek: webintents had issues that translated into UI nightmare

<EdK> came up with a set of common actions, this is what people are deploying today.

<EdK> only 2 attributes "do", "with"

<cwebber2> webrtc seems to work well as long as you're willing to reconnect ;)

<EdK> even if you have no support for webactions, the page will still work

<KevinMarks> link for Tantek's discussion http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions

<EdK> if you are handling an indie action, user has specified what to do with the action

<EdK> demonstrated a few approaches linked from the above noted page

<EdK> berry frost used text and graphic/icon as a good use case example

<EdK> took some webcomponent magic, he used CSS

<EdK> demonstrated fallback action to twitter when not defined

<EdK> evanpro: when using feedreader approach, can you operate on teh actions?

<EdK> tantek: is inside the hentry, currently wouldn't do something. certainly doable erhaps as simple as one class name

<KevinMarks> you mean e-action tantek?

<EdK> Sandro: what about if you dont' do what evan just asked:

<EdK> tantek: using register protocol handler. can register on your site. the site you are browsing doesn't know that. asks if you have a handler, if not it will fall back

<EdK> discussed "register the web action protocol" as teh method

<Zakim> tantek_, you wanted to point out indiewebcamp.com/webactions and what's been deployed

<EdK> jasnell: the action handler work, jasmes sees lots of overlap. the action handler type prevents more options, but is much simpler. roughly equivalent approaches, support of multiple fallback options, dealing with verbs, don't see thse as too far off

<EdK> tantek: doesn't say how to handle the verb. you can have an indei-action tag without a fallback

<EdK> s/indei/indie/s

<Loqi> EdK meant to say: tantek: doesn't say how to handle the verb. you can have an indie-action tag without a fallback

<EdK> evanpro: issue he'd liek to address, where will we handle in our schedule and process. ack that James is already working on. is a llot for the working group to address. getting the social api and teh federation protocol may want to happen earlier than in-browser experiecne

<cwebber2> +1 to federation / social stuff coming first... I do think actions stuff is something that will be critical to a lot of people, but federation stuff is more critical I feel

<tantek> http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention

<EdK> would like to talk about whether to include these actions. preference is to push off until after federation protocol, then can discuss using these actions in a federated environment.

<tantek> I meant to say:

<EdK> timing discussed, feeling is that should be toward end of process

<EdK> Arnaud: asked if these use cases mean we do have use cases.

<EdK> jasnell: has an editor's draft, will continue to work on it. on road to FWD doesn't mean have to talk a lot about it. suggests Tantek and James discuss. would like to at least look at in draft, even if it isn't going to end up being prioritized. see actions as an entrypoint into the API discussions

<EdK> provides use case insight

<EdK> ARnud: is concern about resources and would be delaying things, or is this about dependancies

<EdK> evanpro: both. limited bandwidth to apply to issues, schedule of others on teh roadmap will define dependencies. roadmap is on page, but not ordered in teh charter.

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to suggest federation protocol before social API

<EdK> jasnell: not in a rush to be finished for this work, is a priority in own company. won't let it derail WG efforts, if it has to wait it will. want to start it going.

<EdK> tantek: would put federation protocol before api based on experience in his work.

<KevinMarks> +1 on webmention maturity

<EdK> maybe tehre are different scopes in mind for federation, but wrt webmention, seems mature enough to go somewhere. freinding, following, pushing out live updates is an area that needs a lot more work though.

<EdK> would like to see tha actions draft contain the superset, then can point to what is being deployed on the web today

<cwebber2> I think that part of federation stuff is foundational enough that I don't think federation can be considered partially done

<Zakim> evanpro, you wanted to ask if "action" suffices for our embedded experience API

<EdK> jasnell: propose to put heads together on these approaches, come up with one that will work.

<KevinMarks> cwebber2: you mean federation is unitary? Can't be incrementally implemented?

<EdK> evanpro: from charter point of view, if action indicators are in social data syntax, would that suffice for embedded experiecne api or would there be more work to do there.

<EdK> harry: problem is too many working drafts will mean can't finish. have to fit together. darwinian process... supports the general activity streams, api, federation, happy with embedded experience work toward the end

<cwebber2> KevinMarks: I'm having a hard time understanding how federation where subscribing/pushing updates/commenting/liking are not all clearly enough implemented where there is a solid enough of a foundation to do much else

<cwebber2> maybe I'm wrong, but

<EdK> jasnell: doesn't want to confuse Open Social Big E embedded experience with the work James is doing about little e experiences.

<EdK> sugarCRM doesn't want to do open social gadgets work anymore either,

<KevinMarks> the micropub/webmention split seems quite good in practice for update/notify

<EdK> harry: need http api out soon, federation. need to get webmention as working draft, no problem also working on embedded draft too.

<KevinMarks> subscription and updates is tricker though PubSubHubbub is a marker there as discussed yesterday

<EdK> main holdup will not be lack of good concepts, will be lack of editor's time in drafts. would focus on http api first.

<cwebber2> I disabled my video for a sec :)

<EdK> clarification there is no order in the charter, but there is a schedule. but it isn't a big deal to change that and inform people of there is a better order.

<cwebber2> sorry for the confusion

<cwebber2> thx for staying on top of it, AnnBassetti

<EdK> evanpro: feels federation is harder,

<KevinMarks> the indie-action technique could be a gadget replacement, but with user-chosen gadget binding

<EdK> jasnell: there is no proposal for the api draft yet, what is the plan to get on teh table for discussion.

<EdK> harry: need to get all tof them on teh table as soon as possible

<EdK> suggests everyone put out editr's draft as soon as possible as teh mechanism to drive timing and forward progress

<EdK> Arnaud: recapped the rather lengthy process to get through all the drafting and review processes, test suites, implementations and reportback of results. putting drafts is lower hanging fruit but the working group has a lot of things to do and can't push a lot of parallel thigns through

<EdK> harry: not concerned about meeting chrter, more worried on time

<EdK> tantek: ok with seeing multiple drafts to get many more eyes on it, even if it is multiple approaches.

<elf-pavlik> +1 staying open to multiple drafts

<EdK> evanpro: could we do with proposals to drafts, winnow down to effort

<EdK> tantek: can see multiple drafts expanding collaboration regarind potentially independent use cases.

<KevinMarks> http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0

<EdK> sandro: re SWAT0, asked the other day about whether it was implemented in indeweb

<elf-pavlik> ProjectDanube?

<EdK> evanpro: did in 3 implementatiosn, statusnet, rstatus, another I missed :-)

<evanpro> buddycloud

<KevinMarks> I say it is implemented; Tantek is quibbling about what "tagging somone in a photo" means

<elf-pavlik> http://buddycloud.com/ (XMPP based)

<EdK> AnnB: so you think it is achievable?

<EdK> tantek: yes.

<EdK> harry: coming to the end of the day. want to finalize with clear editors.

<tantek> http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub as well for a social API

<elf-pavlik> possibly Hydra and Linked Data Fragments !

<EdK> evanpro: seems like there are 3 pump.io, micropub, ....?

<tantek> see and add to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates

<EdK> thanks tantek

<EdK> Arnaud: want to use last 1/2 hour to wrap up. are we done with actions discussion at the moment?

<EdK> KevinMarks suggests indieweb did (mostly) meet SWAT0

<EdK> Arnaud: great meeting over last 2 days

<EdK> what is important is have clear idea who needs to do what

<EdK> some actions notes, some issues not noted formally

<EdK> anything not related to a specific draft, broader should be recorded in tracker.

<tantek> jasnell: indiewebcamp.com/webactions and indiewebcamp.com/indie-config

<EdK> review different topics agree what to do next

<EdK> activity stream specs - are we clear?

<EdK> jasnell: next step is to get feedback.

<EdK> Arnaud: need 2 people to commit to reading and commenting on specs.

<EdK> Arnaud: are we near last call yet?

<EdK> jasnell: no

<EdK> jasnell: need one more working draft to add namespace, resolve questions like verbs as nouns, may need one more working draft early december to wrok out that. then can work on starting to do some tests and test suite

<EdK> evanpro: what would a test suite be evaluateing:

<EdK> jasnell: make sure parsing is handled the same way?

<elf-pavlik> o/

<EdK> Arnoaud: who is planning implementing - given all the other work.

<KevinMarks> is http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-link-method-10 meant to be a webmention equivalent, jasnell ?

<EdK> Sandro: what is implementation ...

<EdK> evanpro: would do parser for consuemr, but what else?

<EdK> jasnell: has some opensource, library not an application. java and javascript parsing and consuming

<AdamB> jasnell: where is the opensource library at today?

<EdK> need to have a JSON-LD to fully handle. All valid AS1.0 must be consumed.

<cwebber2> thx AnnBassetti

<EdK> tantek: use cases should drive tests

<EdK> for an implementation

<sandro> ISSUE: Are AS consumers REQUIRED to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax?

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-7 - Are as consumers required to understand the pre-json-ld syntax?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/7/edit>.

<EdK> cwebber2: right now implementing at mediagoblin, suggests will have more than 1 implementation likely.

<EdK> Arnaud: may be boring but figuring out what spec is first, helps people know what to implement.

<cwebber2> thx for handling that AnnBassetti

<EdK> tantek: finding existing implementations can make sure the call goes out to find out who will then implement the spec

<KevinMarks> we should invite Echo and Gnip to comment as they have existing AS implementations

<jasnell> KevinMarks: +1

<cwebber2> oh I should be off the queue

<EdK> harry: need to recognized that some implementers tend to wait.

<cwebber2> logical guess of queue management command worked ;)

<tantek> this is what I'm talking about: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#Implementations

<EdK> Arnaud: one thing practically that can be done, sooner we have test suite sframework set up, tell people what a test looks like, then people can submit tests and therefore implement a test suite

<evanpro> ACTION: test suite for Activity Streams 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Error finding 'test'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<elf-pavlik> I started already with testing RDF from examples in the spec draft, if that counts as useful test...

<evanpro> ISSUE: test suite for Activity Streams 2.0

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-8 - Test suite for activity streams 2.0. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/8/edit>.

<EdK> evanpro: what is action - to create test suite for AS2.0? who gets teh action? better create an issue

<wilkie> oh yay. good.

<wilkie> :)

<EdK> evanpro: since don't have a vocabulary, haven't adopted AS1.0, need an action.

<evanpro> ACTION: jasnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<elf-pavlik> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/32 first version of tests for expected RDF

<wilkie> tantek: that implementation list doesn't even have statusnet or rstatus on it heh

<evanpro> ACTION: evanpro share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Error finding 'evanpro'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<tantek> wilkie heh - please edit it! :)

<wilkie> evanpro: try jsnell

<evanpro> ACTION: jsnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Adapt basic schema from activity streams 1.0 to 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2014-11-05].

<wilkie> tantek: will do *salutes* :)

<tantek> wilkie++ thank you!

<Loqi> wilkie has 3 karma

<elf-pavlik> s/identity/profiles/ ;)

<evanpro> ACTION: eprodrom share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-11-05].

<Loqi> elf-pavlik meant to say: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/32 first version of tests for expected RDF

<elf-pavlik> who speaks?

<KevinMarks> hadleybeeman is speaking, elf-pavlik

<EdK> hadleybeeman: introduced herself. story about needing to make crx very clear in the beginning, to smooth discussions with the director

<KevinMarks> test or validation?

<EdK> jasnell: AS1.0 did not define conformance. now with implementations can define within test sutie for 2.0

<hadleybeeman> ...to smooth discussions with the director and to avoid discovering unexpected confusion later on.

<EdK> s/sutie/suite/s

<Loqi> EdK meant to say: jasnell: AS1.0 did not define conformance. now with implementations can define within test suite for 2.0

<wilkie> KevinMarks: "test or validation" wrt AS?

<EdK> harry: hard to test based on user experience, so parser is default

<sandro> sandro: just testing whether the stream has valid syntax is not a test of a consumer.

<EdK> Arnaud: lets keep on going with actions, it is useful. haven't said anything about dederation, should we ahve an action

<EdK> s/dederation/federation/s

<Loqi> EdK meant to say: Arnaud: lets keep on going with actions, it is useful. haven't said anything about federation, should we ahve an action

<KevinMarks> sandro, so some kind of round-tripping?

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Federation_candidates

<Loqi> sandro meant to say: sandro, just testing whether the stream has valid syntax is not a test of a consumer.

<sandro> KevinMarks, I don't really have much idea, other than manual testing. It seems like a really hard problem.

<cwebber2> AnnBassetti: I don't now, I disconnected and reconnected

<cwebber2> thanks :)

<hhalpin> consumers can be judged by number of users, which can be documented rather easily if there are products with X customers or in open-source products where you can list number of subscribers/users.

<evanpro> ISSUE: need candidates for federation protocol

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-9 - Need candidates for federation protocol. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/9/edit>.

<evanpro> ISSUE: need candidates for Social API

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-10 - Need candidates for social api. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/10/edit>.

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates

<hhalpin> So, if we have a parser for a project with no subscribers or a product with no estimated number of users, then it doesn't count in my book.

<KevinMarks> is micropub also federation?

<hhalpin> That's why W3C didn't want to launch group till we had some clear products that were interested in the space.

<elf-pavlik> reminder: tomorrow meeting with schema.org - https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG

<hhalpin> Since its harder to tell with open-source projects

<hadleybeeman> hhalpin: that all looks fine to me. I'm not fussed how you measure conformance or what the CR exit criteria are — just don't want you all to end up frustrated with this later!

<hhalpin> micropub does indeed count as a federation.

<cwebber2> I need to drop off

<cwebber2> sounds like things are wrapping up anyway

<EdK> annB says her browser crashed

<cwebber2> thank you, all!

<hhalpin> I'm also totally happy with things not going to Rec if they don't have users.

<cwebber2> AnnBassetti: and thanks again for handling the recording

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, come back for picture!

<elf-pavlik> AnnBassetti, no need!

<elf-pavlik> we take one next summer in Europe :)

<EdK> Arnaud: closes meeting, time for pictures

<elf-pavlik> great job everyone!!!

<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: arnaud to set up a doodle poll for next F2F, with 1st week of Feb and March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: azaroth to look at the Social WG FPWD [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: eprodrom share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: evanpro share verbs and object types from pump.io with jsnell before adapting basic schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: hhalpin to cycle with Wendy and Google on PUSH licensing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: identify a liaison between the two WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: James Snell will look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work and Activity Streams [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: jasnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: jasnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: jsnell adapt Basic Schema from Activity Streams 1.0 to 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: jsnell to look at web annotation model and figure out how it maps into social work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: KevinMarks to act as liaison between the two WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: kmarks2 to act as liaison between the two WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: test suite for Activity Streams 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html#action10]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-10-29 00:59:11 $

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Found Date: 28 Oct 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-social-minutes.html
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