W3C

CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference

15 Oct 2014

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Jeremy Tandy (jtandy), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Yakov Shafranovich (yakovsh), Andy Seaborne (AndyS), Jeni Tennison (JeniT), Phil Archer (phila), Bill Ingram (bill-ingram1), Dan Brickley (danbri)
Regrets
Chair
Jeni Tenison
Scribe
Jeremy Tandy

Contents


TPAC Agenda review

<JeniT> TPAC agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/F2F_Agenda_2014-10

JeniT: introduces the topic;
... meeting is split into 90-minute chunkcs
... first session will be overview of the Charter ... so that we can all make sure that we're working on the same topics(!)
... next 3 sessions will cover metadata at table level (what kind of vocabularies)
... then how we should model datatypes etc.
... then looking at how we do notes and annotations on tables, rows, cells etc
... final session of the day will look at the syntax doc
... next day will cover multiple CSVs, URL generation, templating support, test suites
... finish with a review of what we've decided etc.
... are there any other topics?

danbri1: asks if there's any time for unexpected issues?

JeniT: only in the final slot ... but if there's something we can drop then ...

phila: talks about "management" type stuff ... is worried about the size of the group & capacity to do implementation and test
... can we use TPAC to ask where the support from W3C Members has gone?
... CSVW is essential, we need more help!

JeniT: suggests that we try to put this "request for more resource" into the first day's overview session

ivan: do we need to discuss the topics that the group _will not_ cover?
... multiple CSVs, SQL support etc.

JeniT: let's talk about this in the overview session - to set the expectations

<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask team contacts if charter should be considered frozen vs malleable

ivan: we have some basic decisions on the approach we take on things like conversions that might affect how we proceed from here ... and the resources required

danbri1: specifically about multiple CSVs, templating seems to be the best way to do this - based on experience with R2RML
... asks phila & ivan about how we can modify the charter if needed?

ivan: adding new work to the charter is not allowed; such extensions require approval of Membership
... if we decide _not_ to do things (because of good reasons) we can report this back to the director ...

phila: agrees.

danbri1: so we can declare not to do stuff because of capacity

phila: what can we collectively do to avoid this happening -

jtandy: notes that our proposal to (possibly) use a community group for the templating should be mentioned

JeniT: adds a note

ivan: the R2RML story is fine; but this is for RDF only ... and is uneasy to work on a technology that _only_ works for RDF to the exclusion of XML and JSON

[danbri's laptop crashed when Ivan mentioned this!!!]

danbri1: converting CSV to XML and JSON without the additional semantics doesn't add much ... this is where the semantic web technologies add value

ivan: notes that this is a longer discussion (for later)

danbri1: let's not walk before we run, let's make sure we can map one CSV file before trying to deal with several CSVs!

<phila> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#CSV

danbri1: asks about registered Observers ...
... are they all approved?

<phila> Phil Archer (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Gregg Kellogg (W3C Invited Experts) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Jeremy Tandy (Met Office) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Jeni Tennison (W3C Invited Experts) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Erik Mannens (iMinds) : attending Monday

<phila> Dan Brickley (Google, Inc.) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Axel Polleres (WU (Wirschaftsuniversität Wien) - Vienna University of Economics and Business) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> William Ingram (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Eric Prud'hommeaux (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Eric Stephan (Pacific Northwest National Laboratory) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Steven Adler (IBM Corporation) : attending Tuesday

<phila> R.V. Guha (not affiliated to a W3C Member) : attending Tuesday

<phila> Guests

<phila> Ralph Swick (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Hadley Beeman (W3C Invited Experts) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Carlos Laufer (Department of Informatics, PUC-Rio) : attending Monday, Tuesday

ivan: there are a number of people listed as members of the group who are not formally members ... admin issues!

<phila> Jeff Jaffe (W3C Staff) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Reinaldo Ferraz (NIC.br - Brazilian Network Information Center) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Zheng Huang : attending Monday

<phila> Narumichi SAKAI (Toshiba Corporation) : attending Monday, Tuesday

<phila> Jaesung Han (Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.) : attending Tuesday

<phila> Tim Berners-Lee (W3C Staff) : attending Tuesday

<phila> Bobby Tung : attending Tuesday

JeniT: asks ivan to sort out the listing

<phila> Satoru Takagi (KDDI CORPORATION) : attending Tuesday

<phila> Alan Iida (Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Corp. (NTT)) : attending Tuesday

JeniT: when we do the introductions, let's make sure we identify "real members" and "observers"

danbri2: let's treat this as a recruitment exercise to get more help!

<danbri2> that sounds fair

JeniT: did that work?

AndyS: yes - the most interested observers did the work
... and it breaks down an "us and them" feel

JeniT: great - let's do that
... any other suggestions about how to run the face to face

[none]

danbri: are there any other TPAC events to be aware of on Mon & Tue
... shall we go to the bar afterwards?

ivan: suggests that we reserve Monday eve for follow on .

danbri: yes - to chat informally

timing issues (for people dialing in)

JeniT: are there any particular sessions that AndyS wants to dial into?

AndyS: no - will just try to fit in; no guarantees to dial in but will try

JeniT: ok - but please advise if you _do_ want things moved around to suit

phila: notes that the AC meeting overlaps with the WG meeting on Tuesday afternoon

preparatory work

JeniT: overview session is OK - plenty of documentation
... can't think of anything we need to prep for that

[agreement]

JeniT: have had good discussion about metadata (on mailing lists) ... it would be good to provide a summary for observers

danbri: suggests to "wing it"

JeniT: data typing ... haven't had much discussion on this yet.
... there is input from other specs that we can point to
... (responds to ivan) ... the data type discussions will look at all the different types of implementations that people might have; validation only, transformation etc.
... will prepare an introductory doc for this session... ACTION

<JeniT> ACTION: JeniT to do brief post on datatype-related issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action01]

JeniT: notes and annotation session - also lacking formal discussions so far?

ivan: is this something that we need a long discussion about or can we (just) offload this to the Annotation WG?
... I would prefer to say that we have a pointer to what they do

danbri: loves the annotations work but is scared about the scope ... annotation is (basically) description ... [and that covers everything]

<danbri> (I did discuss w/ someone from that community who was frustrated that they're not doing enough around data annotation - focus seems to be on document-oriented sticky notes...)

JeniT: lets talk about the approach we should take
... to progress this subject
... asks ivan if a summary on the Annotation WG deliverables can be provided?

<danbri> "The working group intends to use the http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/ and http://www.openannotation.org/spec/extension/ specifications," http://www.w3.org/annotation/

<danbri> http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/

ivan: will try to get the chairs of the Annotation WG to attend that session

<JeniT> ACTION: Ivan to negotiate with Annotation WG chairs to have someone come & talk to us at F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Negotiate with annotation wg chairs to have someone come & talk to us at f2f [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-10-22].

ivan: I think that they are on site for the whole week, but with their WG session on Tuesday

jtandy: suggests that people bring real examples to work on (& validate) with the proposals

<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask 'what about non-rdf ...'

JeniT: good point ... and for people also to have read the documents first!

danbri: notes that their work is currently very RDF focused

ivan: but they are being driven toward less RDF

JeniT

JeniT: final session on Monday is the syntax doc; don't think this needs any more prep

<danbri> re multiple CSVs, Anastasia points at http://rml.io/RML_examples.html which has some example (cities) with multi-csv descriptions

JeniT: first session tuesday is multiple CSVs ... I think it would be useful to construct a note about the data package (?), my experiments, and the work of the TAG
... and Google's dataset publishing language (DSPL)

<danbri> re https://developers.google.com/public-data/overview

danbri: offers to provide notes on DSPL and RML approach

<JeniT> ACTION: JeniT to pull together note on multiple CSVs (datapackaging, UC-4, TAG packaging work) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action03]

<JeniT> ACTION: danbri to pull together note on multiple CSVs (RML, DSPL) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action04]

ivan: wonders if the order of sessions on multiple csvs, identifiers and template support should be reversed ... we don't have a clear decision on the templating support yet
... and the identifiers relate to the template issue

JeniT: agrees

+1

JeniT: preparation around templating support ... wing it on the day and point to our discussions.

<JeniT> ACTION: jtandy to provide summary of RFC6570 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action05]

ivan: wonders if a short description (high level overview) of the URI templating RFC should be prepared

jtandy: offers to do this

JeniT: other prep?

danbri: will try to do more work ... mustache based, RML based ...

ivan: shall I do some slides on my experiement

JeniT: yes please!

<JeniT> ACTION: ivan to create some slides on his experiemental templating stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action06]

JeniT: is hoping to work through ideas and experiments for each session before launching into the discussions
... next is testing suites ... what is the normal approach for test suites

ivan: notes that Gregg has an excellent track record on setting up test suites for RDFa etc. ... and hopes that Gregg could present this work as an example

<JeniT> ACTION: ivan to ask Gregg to prepare something around test suites for F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action07]

JeniT: and that leaves just the wrap up.

<JeniT> ACTION: JeniT to write to group around general requirements prior to F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action08]

<phila> Data shapes, DWBP etc

JeniT: basic prep for everyone includes - read the specs, bring experiments, ...

danbri: what should we aim to do on Friday
... (and thu)

[partipants indicate TAG, Data on the web BP, Data shapes etc.]

phila: DWBP has just released a new UC doc; aim will be to talk about the requirements arising from that.
... strategy on thu morning, sleeves rolled up on thu afternoon and practical steps on fri.
... asks about Taxis from airport.

JeniT: let's coordinate by email.

<danbri> (gotta run, meeting room being taken)

JeniT: closes the meeting

<ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: danbri to pull together note on multiple CSVs (RML, DSPL) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: ivan to ask Gregg to prepare something around test suites for F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: ivan to create some slides on his experiemental templating stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Ivan to negotiate with Annotation WG chairs to have someone come & talk to us at F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: JeniT to do brief post on datatype-related issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: JeniT to pull together note on multiple CSVs (datapackaging, UC-4, TAG packaging work) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: JeniT to write to group around general requirements prior to F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: jtandy to provide summary of RFC6570 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/15-csvw-minutes.html#action05]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2014/10/15 13:10:05 $