See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014
<clown> agenda: this
<joanie> Scribenick: joanie
<clown> action-1444?
<trackbot> action-1444 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
JS: You made a note about this in June. Why is this still open?
JD: I'm not sure.
JS: I have an action to write text about this. I'm waiting for all these (platform) action items to be complete.
<clown> scribenick: clown
RS: you want all the elements mapped as divs?
JD: Yes, there is a discussion with Alex, and yes, div is perfect.
RS: Just for ATK/AT-SPI?
JD: Well, maybe it can be extdended to other APIs.
RS: If we switch to a div, it
will break things all over the place.
... The could be very destructive. It could break an awful lot
of stuff.
JD: It doesn't break things as role text?
RS: It seems to work now.
JD: That's valid, but this might
be a case where ATK is different from IA2.
... But, it's not role text.
RS: That's fine. But, I don't think there is an issue with role text on IA2.
<joanie> Scribenick: joanie
JS: This came about because at
one point Firefox changed how it deals with presentational
tables.
... It smushed it into a single text blob.
RS: We really need to look at
this. If it was div before, without the smushing, ok. But I
don't want to break anything.
... I agree that merging the text all together is not a good
thing.
JS: The question remains: What is the role of the individual cells?
<clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435
<clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435#c9
JS: According to the above
comment, when they fixed it for IA2, they used
ROLE_TEXTFRAME.
... Is that the same as ROLE_TEXT?
RS: I'm not sure.
JS: (Quotes comment from the bug)
<clown> IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME
RS: (Looks up roles)
<clown> ATK_ROLE_TEXT
<clown> scribenick: clown
RS: <discussion of using div vs. text frame>
JD: Ignoring this case, what are
other examples of IA2_TEXT_FRAME?
... I'm trying to get a better feel for what a text frame
is.
RS: The only place I know it's
used is tables with role presentation.
... Exposed by FF.
JD: Can we solve this by saying, if this isn't something we don't want to expose in the first place, don't do it now.
RS: Another question: can we do
something different for Linux than we do for Windows.
... What is a div on linux?
JD: It's ROLE_SECTION
RS: Do they have a text frame for
the table itself.
... The TDs become text frames.
... Do the TRs go away?
BL: I think they do.
RS: Is that something we could do
for the linux version?
... So, the table and TRs go away, but the TDs are mapped to
section?
JD: That's what I asked for in the bug.
RS: What happens to a caption?
JS: I think it goes away on a presentation table.
CS: We advise authors against that type of error.
<joanie> Scribenick: Joanie
<clown> action-1104?
<trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
JS: Last week we went through
David's actions.
... We'd like to do that with yours today.
... (reads first issue)
CS: This is an open issue in UIA.
My plan is to open an issue in our internal system, assign it
to myself, and get something done.
... An answer of what should happen, I can probably get in a
few weeks.
JS: October 21st then.
<clown> action-1372?
<trackbot> action-1372 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1372
<clown> issue-635?
<trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
JS: This is related to issue 635.
CS: I haven't done this yet, how about after TPAC? November 15th.
<clown> action-1373?
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
JS: Another test case one.
CS: This one I might be able to do earlier as it is related to something I'm actively working on. Three weeks.
<clown> action-1396
<trackbot> action-1396 -- Cynthia Shelly to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
CS: Mid november.
JS: I have some suggestions in the notes.
CS: Good, that will help.
JS: That's already discussed.
CS: There's an equivalent one for UIA.
<clown> action-1445?
<trackbot> action-1445 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445
CS: What did you decide for ATK?
JS: Map them as if they are divs.
CS: I think that's going to be the best for UIA.
JS: Rich concerns about this?
RS: It's fine as long as we have AT support.
CS: I think we ought to be
consistent.
... Right now, if you have a div, it's usually ignored I
think.
... (by the ATs)
RS: They do and they don't.
... What's important is that when you mark something as
presentational, it doesn't merge the elements together.
... You want to preserve the element separation.
CS: Right now, I believe it does
merge text.
... I don't think that's good behavior.
... I'm proposing an accessible on object for every node.
... (mentions group)
RS: I wouldn't give it a role of group.
CS: Group is what we map div to.
JS: To be clear, the group role is a UIA group; not an ARIA group.
CS: In IE an ARIA role group also
maps to role group.
... It may be that ARIA role group should be mapped to
something different.
RS: I think it's important to separate these out.
CS: It seems unlikely that we
would change the mapping for div as those are all over the
place.
... Remapping ARIA role group would be more sane.
RS: I asked James about this.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-rowgroup
RS: He said those aren't real
groups.
... We need to resolve these pieces
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#group
CS: Agreed. It sounds like the ARIA group role needs to map to something different.
RS: Agreed.
... The issue is what is the ideal mapping for ARIA role group
so that it doesn't conflict with the generic group role which
is used on many platform a11y APIs.
<clown> issue: What is the ideal mapping for the ARIA group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on AAPIs, e.g,, AXAPI and UIA.
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-678 - What is the ideal mapping for the aria group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on aapis, e.g,, axapi and uia.. Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678/edit>.
<clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
JS: Are there any issues we want to add?
RS: We may want to discuss this
during the ARIA call.
... Give me an action to talk about it.
<clown> ACTION: Rich to discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA teleconference. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1515 - Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-10-07].
<clown> action-1515
<trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-10-07 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
JS: Please identify what you want to include.
RS: Will this include the name and description document?
JS: Yes.
RS: What I personally would like
to see is the interlock between the two of them.
... I also need this for the SVG spec.
... TPAC is less than a month away.
JS: And really, it's more like two weeks so that Michael can do the needed work.
CS: That seems like a good topic. When do we need to have these done? The 14th?
JS: I'll bring it up at tomorrow's Editor's meeting.
(Group discussion about the possible impact of the github repository reorg on meeting our heartbeat goals. Conclusion: We'll discuss this as well at tomorrow's Editors' meeting.)
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