<trackbot> Date: 23 September 2014

<clown> agenda: this

scribnick: joanie

<scribe> scribenick: joanie

News: Heart-beat working draft in time for TPAC.

JS: At last week's editors' meeting, we decided to try for a heart-beat draft in time for TPAC (31 October?).
... There is a set of edits I'd like to get done for that for the core mapping guide.
... I'd ask others to look through the issues and actions to see if there's anything they'd like to include and raise the profile so that it gets done.
... The deadline is two weeks before TPAC to get it through the W3C publishing process.
... So I'm going to say, give me what you want done by 10 October.

DB: I want to ping Marco and Alex about this. Do you want to send out an email?

JS: I could, but my reluctance is that there are people on the list who are not in this group. They might provide ARIA spec suggestions.
... Ok, I'll be explicit about what we are looking for (mapping guide) and send an email.

DB: (Asks about others)

JS: The group is also interested in ARIA, HTML, and SVG spec stuff as well.

DB: I'm concerned about this going to far before implementation feedback.

JS: This is a working draft; it provides the direction we're heading.
... SVG is going to be brand new. It will provide what the accessibility mappings are for certain SVG elements.
... People can then react.
... This doesn't involve testing.

DB: There's an investment of people working on it.

JS: (Looks for document)

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg/svg-implementation.html

DB: This is fairly large already.

JS: He started with the core mapping guide and started removing stuff.
... But I don't think he's removed enough.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg/svg-implementation.html#mapping_role_table

DB: The above is probably the more interesting part.

(Discussion about mapping of div)

JS: He was looking for the most generic role you can give it.
... Almost all are none or group.
... We put name and description in its own document. But he still has name and description in here.
... Nothing special about group position in SVG.

DB: Yet.

JS: The SVG documentation tells you how to override core.
... There's something similar for HTML.

News: ACTION-1506 Stand-alone document for accessible name computation.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accessiblename/accName.html

JS: I have made at least 10 drafts or so of this. Above is the latest.
... It currently takes the name and description computation out of the core mapping guide and sticking that stuff in its own document.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accessiblename/accName.html#mapping_additional_nd_te

JS: I have cleaned up the actual algorithm which is above.
... Wherever possible I substituted a role or Accessibility API term instead of the HTML term. Or added the SVG term.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accessiblename/accName.html#nameMappingTable

JS: I'd like to get your opinion on the above mapping table.
... I have more or less finished the accessible name row; I've not finished the accessible description role.

DB: It would be good for Alex Surkov to review this document.

JS: I want to further improve this text to make it more algorithmic and less "chatty."

DB: Has James commented on it yet?

JS: When we talked about this two weeks ago (?), he said "I have every confidence in you."
... I've made James an editor of this document. Rich and Steve Faulkner will also be editors.
... Rich for SVG and Steve for HTML.

DB: I feel like Alex Surkov has contributed to this, but I guess an editor is something different.

JS: (Explains the nature of being an editor)
... Cynthia is not here, so....

ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role.

JS: Ditto

<clown> action-1492?

<trackbot> action-1492 -- David Bolter to Investigate issue 671 and propose a solution that is clear for widgets -- due 2014-08-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1492

DB: Not yet done. Other issues came up unexpectedly.

JS: Moving due date back another week.

DB: Sure.

ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.

<clown> action-1311?

<trackbot> action-1311 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists; work out in UAIG 1.1 and with implementors/vendors how to resolve this. -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1311

JS: This is the one I need advice on from everyone.

<clown> <table role="presentation" …>

JS: At one point, Firefox changed how they handle tables with role="presentation" so that all the text in the table became one object in the accessibility tree.
... Matt King raised a concern about the huge text blob.

<clown> IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME

JS: Firefox changed so that each td element became a textframe.
... We need to clarify this in the mapping guide.
... When the presentation role is applied to tables or lists, we need to separate the elements to avoid a single text blob.
... I'm struggling with the wording.

DB: The best way for me to help is write an email.

JS: I'd like to include this in time for the heartbeat release prior to TPAC.

JD: Is there draft text already that you are asking us to review?

JS: No. I've given up. I am asking the implementors to provide the clarification/text.

<clown> I'm looking to the experts to propose the text.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1013584

JD: Looking at the above bug, 1) Div should be used (i.e. ATK_ROLE_SECTION) not text. This is explained in the conversation I had in that bug with Alex Surkov.
... Beyond that, in my opening report I state:

"Expected results: The child elements would each be exposed as if they were div elements."

JD: How much (more) clarification do you need, Joseph?

JS: And the next question is where does that text go?
... I guess the mapping of the presentation role? Let me see....

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-presentation

JS: No. I don't think it works there. Looking at the above.

<clown> <img role="presentation" ..>

<clown> <img alt="" ..>

JD: I think that table you point to IS the appropriate place to put this text. However:
... I do not think that ROLE_PANEL is the right mapping. A panel tends to be a thing (yes, generic) which contains widgets.
... role="presentation" is not a thing that contains widgets. Therefore, treating all things role="presentation" as if they were div elements would be perfect
... On ATK/AT-SPI2, div is mapped to ROLE_SECTION.

<clown> issue-677

<trackbot> issue-677 -- ATK/AT-SPI mapping of role="presentation" to ROLE_PANEL -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/677

JS: Ok, I just made the above issue to address the mapping change.

<davidb> DB: (via IRC) I'd want to keep IA2 close to ATK so if we change this we should also consider IA2_ROLE_SECTION

<clown> "Expected results: The child elements would each be exposed as separate accessible objects."

<davidb> JD:"The child elements would each be exposed as separate accessible objects".... of type blah blah over here

JD: To clarify, there should be a pointer to the potentially-platform-dependent role.

<clown> "In the case of tables and lists, the child elements would each be exposed as separate accessible objects as per the different AAPI role mappings"

JD: i.e. if ATK wants ROLE_SECTION and IA2 ROLE_TEXTFRAME

JS: The above language will be added to the role="presentation" mapping.

DB: The case we're talking about is only if there's text in the table, right?

<clown> <table role="presentation">… <td><p>Some text <img src=".."></p></td> …</table>

<davidb> JD: if there was other stuff in the TD it can still be in the div/section (DB is trying to paraphrase here)

<davidb> DB: ah ok.

<clown> becomes: "<div><p>Some text <img src=".."></p></div>

<davidb> TD -> DIV

ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role.

JD: Cynthia is not here.

ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.

JD: Cynthia is not here.

ACTION-1409 : (Joanie) Progress on ATK API for position, level, etc.

<clown> action-1409?

<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-08-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409

JD: This is on hold for at least a month or so because GNOME 3.14 was just released. This new API will need to go into 3.15/3.16.
... I will likely do an initial implementation of the API myself and sanity check it via Gtk and/or WebKitGtk to be sure that I didn't get it wrong.
... And if it seems sane, try to get the ATK and AT-SPI2 maintainers to accept it.

ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists

JD: Cynthia is not here.

Processing issues/actions:https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23

JS: End of meeting.

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/additions and then people wanting to change things/this going to far before implementation feedback/
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Found ScribeNick: joanie
Inferring Scribes: joanie
Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, +1.416.848.aaaa, +1.416.848.aabb, David_Bolter
Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer Joanmarie_Diggs Bryan_Garaventa +1.416.848.aaaa +1.416.848.aabb David_Bolter

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Regrets: Cynthia_Shelly
Found Date: 23 Sep 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-aapi-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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