<trackbot> Date: 22 September 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0079.html

<jamesn> scribeNick: jamesn

<clown> action-1349?

<trackbot> action-1349 -- James Craig to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349

RS: Don't see anything listed in here. Punt to next week

action-1355?

<trackbot> action-1355 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Propose specific edit for issue-588: clarify rowheader and columnheader selection -- due 2014-09-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1355

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0071.html

RS: I have a proposal here. This is important. There is a subtle thing which will impact the guide
... it really only happened if the multiselectable state is set.
... that means that if not in the multiselectable state then only the column header can be selected.

JN: discussing pivot tables and other places where selecting a column header does not select all the cells in the column

RS: If the author wanted to have the whole column selected and they are only navigating to the column header then they wouyld have to propogate the changes
... do people agree that we do not propogate the selection

MK: I agree with that

RS: don't know what else we need to add to that

<clown> issue-588?

<trackbot> issue-588 -- Clarify rowheader and columnheader selection (editorial) -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/588

JS: what issue caused this? Issue 588

MK: where did it come from?

RS: decision came that we should modify this text.
... should we specify in the spec to state that this doesn't select everything in the column

MK: we don't go around the spec and anticipate all the odd things that a browser developer might do and try to prevent them

RS: It was asked what does it mean if i select a row or a column header?

MK: we don't know if the question is raised based on a UA or an application.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-selected

MK: I have this feeling that writing text like that is a bit of a rabbit hole. If we go through doing stuff like that is would baloon

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#columnheader

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#rowheader

MK: where does it describe what it would do if the application puts aria-selected on the row of the grid

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#row

MK: do we address aria-selected on the grid row?

RS: we don't have a solumn construct in 1.0

<richardschwerdtfeger> gridcell elements with the aria-selected attribute set can be selected for user interaction, and if the aria-multiselectable attribute of the grid is set to true, multiple cells in the grid may be selected. Grids may be used for spreadsheets like those in desktop spreadsheet applications.

RS: we talk about multiselction in the definition of the grid

<bgaraventa1979> +q

RS: If you put aria-selected on the row header or the columnheader of the gris then it does not auto-select all the things in the column
... I want to get this closed

BG: If you have a column and it selects the entire column then if you unselect something then what happens?

RS: the author should alwys be able to override things

<richardschwerdtfeger> Applying the aria-selcted state on a rowheader or columnheader does not automatically set the aria-selected stated to all the cells in the corresponding row or column. The setting of these additional aria-selected states is application dependent.

JS: where are you puttin it?

RS: on row and column header
... let me go into the action

MK: application could be problematic

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#managingfocus

<dicussing wording>

<mattking> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader does not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.

<mattking> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader SHOULD not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.

<richardschwerdtfeger> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader MUST not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.

<mattking> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader MUST not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.

<mattking> An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner for a specific application.

<clown> An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner depending on the specific application

<richardschwerdtfeger> Propagation of aria-selected to the individual gridcells is application dependent.

<clown> An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner depending on the specific application.

<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: James Craig to add this text to the rowheader and columnheader specification sections: Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader MUST not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column. An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner depending on the specific application.

action-1423?

<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group, none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423

<clown> action-1423?

<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group, none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423

CS: I expect to be working more closely with them in the future so should get done soon. Give me another week

<clown> action-1423?

<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group, none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-09-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423

<clown> action-1461?

<trackbot> action-1461 -- Michael Cooper to Ask an html-aapi editor to bring question of @inert to html a11y tf -- due 2014-09-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1461

action-1461?

<trackbot> action-1461 -- Michael Cooper to Ask an html-aapi editor to bring question of @inert to html a11y tf -- due 2014-09-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1461

MC: rushed to do it. put it in pending review state.... was tossing it over the wall.
... in pending review state - but nothing to review
... if can get the property to be reinstated then would be good for aria

<MichaelC> ackme

action-1462?

<trackbot> action-1462 -- Cynthia Shelly to Discuss computed role with ie team -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1462

<clown> action-1462?

<trackbot> action-1462 -- Cynthia Shelly to Discuss computed role with ie team -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1462

CS: move this one out too

action-1497?

<trackbot> action-1497 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write a glossary item for accessible description -- due 2014-08-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1497

RS: put a proposal out which JC modified. Was fine with those mods./

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0083.html

<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides help information about an interface

<richardschwerdtfeger> element or about how it is used. The value of the accessible description

<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a

<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language

<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.

RS: people ok with that?

LS: I'm not
... I wrote to the list. There is a whole issue here and will be creating a mess with this
... My suggestion would be for screen reader help, alternate interface help etc.
... something we want to put in place for the cognitive task force is to put in mechanisms for help for users who require it
... it is a user group whose accessible experience would be detracted from by screen reader information
... It is very important that we specify who is the intended audience
... sould be a text box where need to edit comments. there could be somthing with a button to move to the toolbar. For someone with cognitive decline the worst thing to do would be to add something with some complex keystoke
... we need to accept that this is not a blanket accessible description

LS we don;t overuse terms like accessibility to mean one user group

RS: there is nothign thgat says anything specific about any user type

LS: I would like to make it specific
... I don't want the same tag for screen reader users as for cognitive users
... If soemthing is needed for screen reader users then it should only be for them and not for congnitive users
... the description doesn't state who it is for.

MK: RS - was this intended to be accessible description as something that is meant to accompany aria-describedby

RS: yes

MK: we use aria-describedby to point to standard help which is available to all users and just associates it. aria-describedby can be used for screen reader specific help.
... aria-describedby is completely generic and needs to stay that way

<fesch_> q

MK: what makes it accessible is that it is related to a specifc element and is relatyed to that element.

RS: getting relationships supported in browesers has been a challenbge at times. If we have to create =something with a nother relation then this is going to be evben harder
... if there was some sort of indication in that description if there were some support for certain user groups then this could be used.

JS: wanted to give a little background

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#dfn-accessible-name

JS: I was working on the accessible name computation and there were all sorts of refs to accessible name and accessible description and had links toi the glossary. But there was no glossary description for accessible description.
... Rich took the task to create one. How that accessivble name or description gets used is up to the application

JD: Matt said it is generic. Should be bigger than a name but smaller than a long description. This is something that is not helk
... when I look at the draft text it looks specifc to help information.

LS: back to the wording. "provides help infromation" should be generic information and not stuff that is specific to modality.
... I think it should be generic and not specific to any modality
... equivalent to aria-describedby and you point to the "make sure you have 7 digits in your code"
... it is not modality specific. It should be plain language. If people are going to use it for other stuff then we can't use it for cognitive

CS: these fields already exist
... sometimes they have other stuff in too.
... trying to redefine this isn't a good idea. We should use what they are used forf now
... redifining is not a good idea

RS: had an aria1.1 now in 2.0 issue for keybaord support
... the intent wasn't to lump it in here

<jongund> RS: Matt

<jongund> RS: Matt King?

<jongund> MK: I had to step away

<clown> scribenick: jongund

RS: You are on que
... We were talking about changing the text for accessible description

MK: I started to edit the description, the description should not say anything about what should go in the description
... We should say a lot less about what should be in the description
... The accessible description is just not a string, it can also be a pointer

<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides help information about an interface

<richardschwerdtfeger> element. The value of the accessible description

<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a

<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language

<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.

RS: It is ultimately a string

MK: It could be a description of a picutre, so it could be considered more help...
... Don't want to use the word description in the def

Clown: More than a name and less than a long description

MK: Any kind of information that is directly related to an element

<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information about the element that the author feels pertinent to convey to the users. The value of the accessible description

<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a

<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language

<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.

RS: How about this..

LS: Yes

MK: There are some cases where you have some information that is part of the screen, it is clearly related to the element... don't like the "author" clause..

Clown: Additional information about the element period

MK: It doesn't have to be... additional information related to the element

Fred: What does related to add?

MK: When you use the word about .... in a dialog we use aria-describedby ... the text is related to the dialog, but not dialog..

<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information relating to the interface element. The value of the accessible description

<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a

<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language

<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.

LS: My confusion is the link to invisible content, it can ref invisible and visible content, reference to content in the web page
... Invisible content is always very ....

MK: that is a valid use of aria-described by

RS: Visible and invisible content covers it all

MK: Information that is not visually present on the page
... Information to me is visible, even though sighted users cannot see it
... We talk about screen reader visibility

Bryan: Perceivable..

MK: Visually perceivable, may not be visually perceivable

<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information relating to the interface element. The value of the accessible description may not be visually perceivable.

MK: Complements accessible name

LS: I like that

RS: Write it in MK
... I have never spent this much time on a gloaary def

JS: Definitions are important

RS: Thank you for raising this LS

<mattking> The accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The value of the accessible description may not be visually perceivable.

additional word smithing .....

MK: May not gives a "should not" flavor
... May not necessarily be visual perceivable

<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information, about an interface element, that complements the accessible name. The accessible description may not be visually perceivable.

RS: Say the accessible description

<mattking> An accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The accessible description may or may not be visually perceivable.

<richardschwerdtfeger> An accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.

<mattking> An accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.

RS: Ok with that?

Clown: MK said something too
... more editing ....
... The glossary needs it

<richardschwerdtfeger> An accessible description provides additional information, related to an interface element, that complements the accessible name. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.

<clown> +1

<mattking> +1

<joanie> +1

+1

<fesch_> +1

<Lisa_Seeman> +1

<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: new glossary definition for accessible description is: An accessible description provides additional information, related to an interface element, that complements the accessible name. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.

RS: Colwn can you put it in?

Clown: It is nt that big of deal
... Just reassign it to me

1497

Action 1497

Clown: Put the definition in a note
... The glossary goes into all the documents
... "Important Terms"

MK: Is this the first definition of "description??

RS: This is not the only place where we have had these jems
... 8 minutes left, let me go to the top of the agenda

<fesch_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0079.html

RS: Lets go through open actions and issues and get dates assigned
... These are all ....
... Issue 561

<clown> action-1426?

<trackbot> action-1426 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: @aria-placeholder -- due 2014-04-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1426

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1426

Joanie: Something that is appropriate to use an object attribute, we already do this, I am not sure why assigned to me

RS: Let me go back

<clown> issue-561?

<trackbot> issue-561 -- We need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/561

RS: Just respond saying this would be best be done with an object attribute
... I am going to close action for Joanie
... 2 minutes left
... Joanie this is you again

MK: Is region role treated as a landmark?

RS: Technically region is not a landmark, but IBM and Jaws treat them as a region

<clown> action-1440?

<trackbot> action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-09-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440

MK: How it is used in the prose

Joanie: I will add that to my list, James assigned me some other things...

RS: That is a wrap

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Default Present: +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Fred_Esch, James_Nurthen, janina, Stefan, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Matt_King, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly, [IPcaller]
Present: +49.322.110.8.aaaa Joseph_Scheuhammer Fred_Esch James_Nurthen janina Stefan Jon_Gunderson Rich_Schwerdtfeger Joanmarie_Diggs Michael_Cooper Matt_King Bryan_Garaventa Cynthia_Shelly [IPcaller]
Regrets: James_Craig Léonie_Watson
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0079.html
Found Date: 22 Sep 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/22-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report