W3C

- DRAFT -

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

21 Aug 2014

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan
Regrets
Eric, Jan, Kelly
Chair
JimAllan
Scribe
allanj, jeanne

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 21 August 2014

<allanj> scribe: allanj

Name change for Implementing UAAG 2.0 - EO13

js: background...name changes are a TASK. has had much discussion. suggested UAAG Reference, everybody liked it. Other groups may change their name of Understanding document. Reference better reflect its purpose.

kp: +1 really good

gl: how big is the title string. UAAG 20 reference, or all spelled out, etc.

<jeanne> UAAG 2.0 Reference

<jeanne> Subtitle is: Explanations, Examples, and Resources for User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0.

put on list to vote, Call for Consensus

ja: CfC by Monday, 25 Aug

open, item 2

publishing

js: we will be ready to publish next week.
... status - substantive changes must be listed

<jeanne> list of Substantive Changes

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/UAAGchangesSinceLastCall.html

js: are there any specific areas we want feed back on with this LC

<jeanne> I will write questions about the Applicability and Text Customization

<Greg> 1.8.7 discussion at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0034.html.

Action-975 Review document for explicit use of uaui or rc and report back - Jim

User Agent User Interface used 27 times, (2 GL, 12 SC, 6 definitions)

Rendered Content used 23 times (1 Principle, 12 SC, 3 definitions)

User Interface used 74 times (3 principles, 2GL, 18 SC. 11 definitions

2 SC overlap, 2 def. overlap between UAUI&RC

<jeanne> this is related to MS04 and MS05

<jeanne> scribe: jeanne

We could remove user agent user interface and make it just user interface

scribe: if we change the definition of rendered content, it would make the user agent user interface moot

[this is a report by Jim Allan about the user agent user interface]

JA: this is also related to the conversation about "recognize" and "rendered content"
... we say that we say that we want a change to the rendered content, but that requires a user interface component that generates that. E.g. the Outline view.
... we could do away with User AGent User Interface just for User Interface

GL: As long as the definition is clear that the User Interface refers to the User Agent User Interface
... 4.1.2 will need a little more work
... UI components and enabled elements which are defined as being in rendered content

<Greg> 4.1.2 would need to be reworded; we can probably just say "UI components" (UA UI) and "enabled elements" (which is defined as only being in rendered content).

<Greg> BUT I am suddenly concerned that 4.1.2 also says "and generated content", which we do not say in all the other SC that apply to generated content along with all other forms of content.

GL: Some browsers will pre-pend the number 1 to an ordered list, but the number does not appear in the DOM and cannot be selected or copied
... and probably won't be exposed to AT as a "thing" with a location
... that is probably why we included it in 4.1.2 because it is often overlooked. Perhaps we could include it in an Application note that generated content is included in rendered content
... of course, some major browsers would fail that today

<Greg> That is, either an application note reminding readers that wherever an SC talks about rendered content that includes generated content, or have an SC that requires generated content be treated like other rendered content.

GL: That is, and Application note that reminders readers that rendered content includes generated content, or an SC that requires generated content to be included in rendered content

JS: I don't think it would fit in an SC -- it doesn't fit under guidelines, except maybe Principle 4

GL: But that wouldn't apply to copy/paste actions.

<Greg> By the last I meant an SC requiring that UA treat generated content like other forms of rendered content for the purposes of all SC (e.g. allowing the user to select and copy it, exposing it to AT, etc.).

JA: we use "generated content" in 3 SCs, but we have no definition for it.

GL: Do we have a term for frequently overlooked items?

<allanj> definition: rendered content - The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes text characters, images, stylesheets, scripts, and any other content that, once processed, may be perceived.

<allanj> the above should include "links", controls (or enabled elements), and generated content

JA: who currently does this?

[testing of selecting/highlighting of ordered lists]

GL: Internet Explorer and QQ

JS: Is this an accessibility issue?

<Greg> Generated content should be selectable, copyable, searchable, exposed as elements in AT API, etc.

KP: you can't select or search for it. Cognitive issue and a speech issue

JA: It is an issue for everyone, not just assistive technology users

<Greg> Unfortunately I believe the CSS spec explicitly says generated content should not be in the DOM; is that correct?

GL: I believe that the CSS spec explicitly says it should not be in the DOM

JA: If it is on the screen, it is rendered content. If it shows up on the screen, I should be able to copy, paste and search on it, and assistive technology should be able to read it.

<allanj> definition: rendered content - The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes text characters, images, stylesheets, scripts, and any other content that, once processed, may be perceived.

<Greg> Jeanne, 1.4.4. needs a link to rendered content.

<Greg> 1.4.4 has "rendered, visual, non-time-based content", which would be hard to link to the definition of rendered content, with all those qualifiers inserted into the middle of the phrase.

<Greg> We could add "This includes content specified by the author, content generated by style sheets, and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<Greg> Or (add to definition of Rendered Content) "This includes content specified by the author, generated content generated inserted by style sheets, and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<allanj> rendered content - The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content generated by style sheets, and dynamic content created or altered by scripts.

<Greg> "This includes content specified by the author, generated content inserted by style sheets, and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<Greg> "This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets (generated content), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<Greg> Jeanne: That doesn't cover ordered lists, which are HTML not CSS.

<Greg> "This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (generated content), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<allanj> rendered content - The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (generated content), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts.

<Greg> "This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets (e.g. number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content attribute), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<allanj> what are bullets, numbers, letters, etc infront of list items called

<Greg> "This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets (e.g. number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<Greg> "This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (e.g. number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts."

<allanj> RESOLUTION: rendered content - The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (e.g. number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts.

RESOLUTION: rendered content - The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (e.g. number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts.

<allanj> rendered text: Text content that is rendered in a way that communicates information about the characters themselves, whether visually or as synthesized speech.

<Greg> The presentation rendered by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (generated content such as number or letter preceding an ordered list item, or the CSS content property), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts.

<Greg> The presentation rendered by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (generated content such as number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property, repair text, and rendered alternative content), and dynamic content created or altered by scripts.

<Greg> But repair text is not really stuff "inserted by style sheet or markup", so it should be split into a separate item in the sentence.

<Greg> The presentation rendered by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes content specified by the author, content inserted by style sheets or markup (generated content such as number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property, and rendered alternative content), content inserted by the user agent (e.g. repair text and security warnings), and dynamic...

<Greg> ...content created or altered by scripts.

<Greg> "security warnings on links"

<Greg> This might all be better as a bulleted list instead of a single very long sentence.

<allanj> The presentation generated by the user agent based on the author supplied code. This includes:

<allanj> * content specified by the author,

<allanj> * dynamic content created or altered by scripts,

<allanj> * content inserted by style sheets or markup (generated content such as number or letter preceding an ordered list item, the CSS content property,

<allanj> and rendered alternative content), and

<allanj> * content inserted by the user agent (e.g. repair text and security warnings on links).

<Greg> Should it say "includes *but is not limited to*"?

<allanj> scribe: allanj

<Greg> Jeanne, 2.1.1 Example, rendered text should be a link.

RESOLUTION: update the definition of rendered content as above

<jeanne> user interface

<jeanne> For the purposes of UAAG 2.0, the user interface includes both: user agent user interface: The controls (e.g. menus, buttons, prompts, native audio/video player controls, and other components for input and output) and mechanisms (e.g. selection and focus) provided by the user agent that are not created on the basis of the author-supplied content. The user agent user interface may include extensions

<jeanne> that become part of the user agent user interface (e.g. toolbars, additional menus).

<jeanne> content user interface: The user interface that emerges from the user agent rendering of the author-supplied content. It includes all rendered content (e.g. text, headings, enabled elements, disabled elements, author-supplied audio/video controls).

<jeanne> Note: There may be a mix of recognized and unrecognized user interface controls depending on the author-supplied content.

<jeanne> This document distinguishes user agent user interface and content user interface only where required for clarity.

<scribe> ACTION: jim to redo definition of User interface [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1019 - Redo definition of user interface [on Jim Allan - due 2014-08-28].

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: jim to redo definition of User interface [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-ua-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-08-21 18:49:26 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: allanj
Found Scribe: jeanne
Inferring ScribeNick: jeanne
Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: allanj
Scribes: allanj, jeanne
ScribeNicks: allanj, jeanne
Default Present: Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan
Present: Kim_Patch Greg_Lowney Jeanne Jim_Allan
Regrets: Eric Jan Kelly
Found Date: 21 Aug 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: jim

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]