<trackbot> Date: 11 August 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0038.html

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0038.html

Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1 features

Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1 features:

Michael

MC: We did some brain storming, wiki get out of date
... One approach is using W3C bugzilla, create bugs for developers
... We can use W3C bugzilla for tracking
... Setting up a mailing list, we use a particular e-mail address, we could process scripts on that e-mail lists
... If we got a status update from MS bug tracker could then update our bug tracker
... Not sure how feasible
... We can setup some predefined queries and then use the wiki to identify the queries
... Present to group for feedback

RS: All have public bug trackers

MC: I think that is the case

RS: MS you need to register an account
... You can't see them unless your using an account

MC: They will be like a group account, instead of an invidual account

RS: How easy will it be to track issues

MC: We have two options we are exploring, it will take some time to setup scripts, once they are setup

RS: Do you have bandwidth?

MC: If it is a priority, I am not the best person, there are probably better people, like David Bolter

RS: I think it will become a priority once we start putting in the features and develop tests
... Hopefully real soon

MC: We need to get the pointers to public bug trackers

JS: That is the next step

MC: Mozilla uses bugzilla

RS: Webkit uses bugzilla
... Does Blink use bugzilla?

JC: I am not sure if it's Bugzilla, but it is a public tracker
... Various trackers use different versions. Mozilla maintains Bugzilla so theirs is usually more up-to-date.

<scribe> ACTION: MichaelC identify bug tracking systems for browser developers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/11-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1496 - Identify bug tracking systems for browser developers [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-08-18].

RS: It can be under the test plan

MC: OK

RS: the other heads up...
... Welcome CS
... Many of the tests are waiting for the rewrite of the name calculation
... I am holding up SVG for this

CS: We are waiting for Joeseph
... We are trying to make it more understandable

JC: We have some pseudo code which we can share

CS: We need both pseudo code and some description

RS: Who is we?

JC: Webkit developers

RS: We need to focus on action items in up coming calls

<jcraig> s/Webkit/WebKit/gi

RS: We need to address SF issues, to support HTML5 accessibility

JS: He is the main one, I think he is back from vacatino
... In the task force we are trying to identify where we can make an impact

RS: HTML 5 is done, so do we need to target HTML 5.1

JS: HTML 5,1

RS: Do we know what will be impelmented in HTML 5.1

CS: Still under discussion with developers

RS: What is the time frame?

JS: Q4 of this year for last call

RS: One of the things we want to do, we need to wrap up ARIA 1.1 so we can move on to ARIA 2.0

CS: You will probably see trajectories, but browser developers are on their own time lines

RS: We need ARIA host langauge semantics

CS: We should just do it, so we are ready if they do get implemented

JS: We need to see how long the list is

CS: It is not a very long list, form controls, dialog....
... That is part of menus, I am trying to work on that now, hopefully in HTML 5.1

RS: That is a big change, we can't promise the world if the paint is really wet
... We are going to have to circle back on that JS
... August 25th we have a meeting with DIgital publishing

JS: Agenda?

RS: One of the things they want us to do is other role values and pass the validator
... We are covered, but we have a validator issue, and probebly SVG

JS: We need to raise that
... How about starting thursday
... MathML implementation

RS: That would be good
... We have everything else set with attribute processing
... Are there any issues with dealing with issues, for example a comic strip would pass the vailadator

JG: Thats scarry to me

RS: We can do that from an accessibility validator

CS: We need the HTML validator that will pass valid roles

JC: I believe Mike Smith's work on the W3C validator looks for at least one valid role, ignore others
... Allows for fallback roles like <a href="#" role="foobar button">

CS: That makes sense to me
... I know that role awareness is part of the validator

RS: We could include ePub structural roles..., you are saying that is a invalid
... They want to use an HTML validator
... The problem you have...

JS: That is part of the call..

RS: The positive side as new semantics, like comic strips, they can add them, then they can be mapped at some time
... What they would like to avoid having fall back roles
... Do you understand where they are coming from

JS: Lets see if we can get some progress on this on the 25th

Issue-637 and Action-1494 (access to digital math)

<jcraig> issue-637?

<trackbot> issue-637 -- Math role should strongly encourage native MathML over custom renderings use "math" role -- closed

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/637

<jcraig> action-1494?

<trackbot> action-1494 -- James Craig to Add spec text encouraging use of native mathml over math approximations using the math role, re: issue-637 -- due 2014-08-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1494

RS: We want people to use digital math, we really need to address support for digital math in the browser
... We need to avoid pushing it off to AT

JC: WebKit and VoiceOver supports MathML natively in Safari and iBooks

RS: Chrome dropped support and IE does not support
... Whats happeng the open source ePub readers they need to use MathJax
... We have a problem with digital math for ePub
... That whole product is rendered unusable for Math
... We sent a lot of time with NIDRR that showed that digital math increases math literacy

<jcraig> Browsers that support native implementations of MathML are able to provide a more robust, accessible math experience than can be accomplished with plain text approximations of math. Some rendering engines have close integration with screen readers that allow spacial touch exploration of the formula and refreshable braille display output in the Nemeth Braille format. This level of integration is not supported with images of mathematical formulas, even if the author

<jcraig> provides a plain text approximation.

<jcraig> At the time of this writing, some mainstream browsers do not support MathML natively, and must be retrofit using a JavaScript polyfill library. When authoring math content, use native MathML wherever possible, and test thoroughly. Use a polyfill library or provide a fallback image with a text alternative approximation if necessary.

JC: If your going respond by saying something is irresponsible you need to check to make sure there was an actual change
... The other bit in the math role, it has not changed in 5 year, a hook for external plug-ins
... I added some text that changed some of the normative prose, it does include an example that uses an image with alt text
... MathML is a long term solution, but you can't right now just stick it in

RS: We need to advocate for browsers to implement MathML natively
... We need a strategy for browsers to implement this natively

JC: NVDA with FF does a good job, VO with Safari works, and iBooks
... If you put in MathML, and use progressive techniques to check if there is native support, ploy fill library if necessary
... I think the author format should be MathML

RS: I am trying to be pragmatic, we have a teacher trying to make digital math, teachers will not how to do this

JC: Teachers don't know now
... a ployfill library it is adding a link to your web page, everything is handed for you

RS: We have issues with authoring tools, we need a comprehensive strategy

JC: There are authoring tools that support MathML, including iBooks

JS: There is a way to handle validation?

JC: Some tools are better than others

RS: Some tools use support drawing input to create math

JS: most authors don't know markup

JC: Is this a tool that exists?

RS: I am not sure how good it is

JS: Steve Jacobs has this tool, I will find a link

<jcraig> \me ;-)

RS: I am looking for link too

JS: He does interesting stuff

RS: I will look up off line
... JS can you bring up with JB

JS: JB is very aware of this

<jcraig> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#math

JC: Can I talk about some other changes?

<jcraig> Content that represents a mathematical expression.

<jcraig> Content with the role math is intended to be marked up in an accessible format such as MathML [MathML], or with another type of textual representation such as TeX or LaTeX, which can be converted to an accessible format by native browser implementations or a polyfill library.

<jcraig> While it is not ideal to use an image of a mathematical expression, there exists a significant amount of legacy content where images are used to represent mathematical expressions. Authors should ensure that images of math are labeled by text that describes the mathematical expression as it might be spoken.

<jcraig> NOTE

<jcraig> Browsers that support native implementations of MathML are able to provide a more robust, accessible math experience than can be accomplished with plain text approximations of math. Some rendering engines have close integration with screen readers that allow spacial touch exploration of the formula and refreshable braille display output in the Nemeth Braille format. This level of integration is not supported with images of mathematical formulas, even if the author

RS: Please do

<jcraig> provides a plain text approximation.

<jcraig> At the time of this writing, some mainstream browsers do not support MathML natively, and must be retrofit using a JavaScript polyfill library. When authoring math content, use native MathML wherever possible, and test thoroughly. Use a polyfill library or provide a fallback image with a text alternative approximation if necessary.

<jcraig> Plain HTML or Polyfill DOM Result of the MathML Quadratic Formula§

<jcraig> If a rendering engine does not support a native math format such as MathML, authors may use JavaScript to downgrade the content to a format the browser can display, such as this HTML image using a data URI and plain text alternative.

<jcraig> EXAMPLE 9

<jcraig> <img role="math" src="..." alt="x=(−b±√(b²−4ac))÷2a">

<jcraig> Editor's note: Might need an RFC-2119 "should" requirement here to encourage AT to speak math approximations with high punctuation verbosity. Otherwise ambiguous characters like a forward slash (/) may not be spoken even when intended to be used interchangeably with the division sign character (÷).

JC: ... describing changes to spec....
... We might need additional description of AT speaking the punctuation and not silencing it
... I wrote this at 2am last might, if there are other concerns please let us know

RS: You have Braille and Nemeth are capitalized

JC: Nemeth braille code is a proper name

JS: I think it is correct

JC: The term Braille...

JS: Braille can be used as any type of tactile marking, also a specific code

<jcraig> Braille is capitalized when used as a proper noun (Nemeth Braille), not as adjective (braille display)

RS: The challenge we have is unless you have the polly fills you won't be able render math
... We as WAI members we need to push digital math

JS: We need to do it with the wider community

JC: IE has a regression that ... doesn't work

RS: The hook was considered a security hole

JC: Polly fill library should render as image with plain text description
... Its better to do it that way for 3 out of 4 browsers, rather than authors just using images

RS: I think MathJaxs is implemented as a Polly Fill

JC: Yes it is

RS: We can have that discussion of it included in authoring tools

JC: That is fine, there are other Polly Fills in other authoring tools

JS: Bring up on the 25th

JC: I agree that getting a polyfill like MathJax in authoring tools is a good secondary goal, but the primary goal should be to get Chrome and IE to support math natively

RS: CS has left
... I can reach out to the AC reps, should I talk to MS?
... Should I reach out to Mike or JB?

JS: You should

RS: Who should i talk to at Google, I guess Raman

JS: He should support it

JG: Illinois is now a member and we can lobby too

RS: The more pressure the better
... We have a chicken and egg issue

JS: We can also have people lobbying the AC

RS: I have a video of the whale sharks

JC: That freaks me out, the size of a medium size of a moving truck

RS: 35 foot long

JC: Swallow you whole

RS: It was pretty cool

Role computatino

RS: We need to talk about the validator issue, we need to get in the implementation guides

ISSUE 633

RS: Matt is not on the call

ISSUE 632

RS: This is going to take more time, they were looking for a definition?
... We need an action to define accessible description

JC: That was right at the end

RS: It is tied in with accessible name description

JC: Accessible description is dependent on context, UIA is depricating

MC: There is an accessible name computation, but not a computation for accessible description

RS: the first thing we need to do is to clarify name versus description
... I can write a glossary item for accessible description
... SVG has a DESC element, so we need to differentiate
... I can take an action item to write a glossary item

MC: That would be a good next step

<scribe> ACTION: richs Write a glossary item for accessible description [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/11-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Error finding 'richs'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: rich Write a glossary item for accessible description [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/11-aria-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1497 - Write a glossary item for accessible description [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-08-18].

RS: Can we assign that to 1.1?

MC: I will do that

RS: 12 minutes left

Issue 668

Issue-668: Redesigning the aria spec. to use h1 for sections if title role is created. Title role was move to ARIA 2.0.

<jcraig> issue-668?

<trackbot> issue-668 -- Consider if the w3c spec format needs to be updated e.g., to use h1 for sections, after some aria roles like title introduced -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/668

RS: move 668 to ARIA 2.0
... Use H1 for major sections
... No objections

MC: Already done

Issue-487: List Managed States and define mapping. Action-980?

ISSUE 487

<jcraig> issue-487

<trackbot> issue-487 -- List managed states and define mappings for managed states -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/487

<jcraig> action-980

<trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980

RS: We have managed state mapping in the implementation guide
... It was moved to DB..., do need to do some special listing of managed states in the ARIA 1.1 spec

JC: I was doing some clean up when I found it, move to ARIA 1.1 implementation guide
... JS and other can discuss on the other call

Issue-636: localized name

ISSUE 636

<jcraig> issue-636

<trackbot> issue-636 -- Continue discussion of localized role "name" (or custom role "descriptions" on known role types) -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636

RS: Names are already localized, is this just a typo?

JC: We are talking about the control name, I think it is a terminology mis-match
... "Chart" needs to localize...

RS: We need to limit role descriptions to regions
... that was how to address the video and audio elements
... Should we change this issue?

JC: Change it to what?

RS: Limit it to role equal region

JC: I support that, but the term has some baggage, alex aria localized role

RS: I am fine with either one

<jcraig> Alex suggested @aria-localizedrole. I countered with @aria-locrole.

RS: We did agree to limit to regions for ARIA 1.1
... DO we have enough people at loc-role?

JC: We discussed for an hour at the FTF

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1417

JC: Once we post the proposed spec we can open it up to more discussion

RS: If we don't think the name is concrete...

JC: I will put a note in the spec that the name is not finalized, localized-role is probably the best one
... We will put in don't implement it is here for disucssion
... I am making steady progress clearning action items

ISSUE 634

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/634

Issue-634: Video and audio roles (simple groups, not full functionality apis)

RS: We agreed not to do video and audio roles for ARIA 1.1, should it be moved to ARIA 2.0

JS: We should discuss for ARIA 2.0

<jcraig> issue-634

<trackbot> issue-634 -- Video and audio roles (simple groups, not full functionality apis) -- raised

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/634

JS: JF might want in ARIA 1.1, we can bring it back if he makes a good case

JC: Moved it

RS: We got a lot done today

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Succeeded: s/If we add special roles for new features/Allows for fallback roles like <a href="#" role="foobar button">/
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Succeeded: s/JF might want in ARIA 1.1/JF might want in ARIA 1.1, we can bring it back if he makes a good case/
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: jongund
Inferring Scribes: jongund
Default Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, janina, Michael_Cooper, jcraig, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger janina Michael_Cooper jcraig Jon_Gunderson Bryan_Garaventa Cynthia_Shelly
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0038.html
Found Date: 11 Aug 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/08/11-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: michaelc rich richs

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