See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 04 August 2014
<MichaelC> meeting: ARIA
<LJWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
<LJWatson> scribenick LJWatson
<LJWatson> MC: Cynthia and I have a meeting scheduled later this week.
<LJWatson> MC: Hopefully there'll be something to report next week.
<LJWatson> JC: This was raised at the F2F.
<MichaelC> 23 January FtF minutes
<MichaelC> issue-508?
<trackbot> issue-508 -- Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup -- closed
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/508
<MichaelC> action-1339?
<trackbot> action-1339 -- James Craig to Patch issue-508: Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup -- due 2014-01-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1339
<MichaelC> Initial discussion behind issue-508
<LJWatson> JC: The context is that we want a grid to have only a single expandable row.
<LJWatson> LC: Proposal is to have rowgroup inside treegrid. It's a simple edit.
<jcraig> The issue/action is about treegrid -> rowgroup, not the other way around. My mistake. This is in fact a simple edit
<jcraig> issue-646
<trackbot> issue-646 -- Since some required attrs have default values, we may need to revisit one sentence in #state_property_processing -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/646
<jcraig> When WAI-ARIA roles are used, supported states and properties that are not present in the DOM are treated according to their default value, unless they are required.
<LJWatson> MC: Suggestion is for the wording to be reviewed to add in the caluse about required.
<LJWatson> MC: Is this difficult for implimentation, the model, or is it straight forward?
<LJWatson> JC: Before we said checked is unchecked,but the default state for a checkbox is undefined.
<LJWatson> MC: Was the proposal for us to define defaults for such properties?
<LJWatson> JC: We started adding more implicit values for roles.
<LJWatson> MC: No reason we couldn't do that for required properties.
<LJWatson> JC: Negligible impact for implimentation, but some work for Mike Smith.
<LJWatson> MC: Any objections?
<bgaraventa1979> no objection
<MichaelC> ACTION: clown to propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1493 - Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-08-11].
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1493 with issue-646
<trackbot> action-1493 (Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties) associated with issue-646.
<MichaelC> action-1493: note that range controls have required properties without defaults. that´s ok, by design, the edit just needs to clarify that if there is a default, UA can use it
<trackbot> Notes added to action-1493 Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties.
<MichaelC> close issue-646
<trackbot> Closed issue-646.
<jcraig> issue-633
<trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
<LJWatson> JC: When you type into a browser bar like the search/location bar, there might be multiple objects in the row as you arrow down.
<LJWatson> JC: Twitter does it. If you're logged into Twitter, then go to the search and arrow down for past searches, there's an x to close it, but there's no way to navigate to it.
<LJWatson> JC: Effectively for each row there is the search string and an x icon to close it.
<LJWatson> BG: How does that fit into the list model?
<LJWatson> JC: It might be an activedescendent. It's not currently keyboard accessible at all.
<LJWatson> JC: Could map the close function to the keyboard, perhaps the escape key.
<LJWatson> JD: Isn't ARIA separate to keyboard interaction?
<LJWatson> JC: Yes, but we recommend basic keyboard support.
<LJWatson> JC: Suggest we table this until Matt is back.
<LJWatson> MC: Yes.
<Birkir> Let´s wait and have Matt himself explain this, I am somewhat confused.
<jcraig> <span class="icon close" aria-hidden="true"><span class="visuallyhidden">Remove</span></span>
<LJWatson> MC: We'll leave this open until Matt is available to discuss on a call.
<jcraig> html snippet was from the twitter search box (remove this saved search)
<jcraig> issue-667?
<trackbot> issue-667 -- Consider introducing a ¨title¨ role -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/667
<LJWatson> MC: Came out of a PF editors meeting.
<LJWatson> MC: The discussion was around h1 and other headings, in relation to a primary title for the content.
<LJWatson> MC: A role of title would avoid issues with starting off headings as aria-level=1
<LJWatson> JC: Because people use h1 to render the text from the banner?
<LJWatson> MC: Right.
<Birkir> Why ARIA, why not html5? Wouldn´t this problem be larger than just assistive technology?
<LJWatson> LW: Would it be confusing to have a role of title, that was nothing to do with the title element?
<LJWatson> BG: Could use aria-labelledby in conjunction with the main role, it would achieve the same outcome.
<LJWatson> JC: Possibly, was thinking about the title text in the banner though.
<LJWatson> MC: W3C specs are a case in point.
<LJWatson> MC: There is an h1 that is the title of the spec, then the section headings (abstract, toc etc.) are h2.
<LJWatson> JC: Is this a point of confusion for users?
<LJWatson> MC: Don't know there's much background behind this.
<LJWatson> MC: It could be argued that heading hierarchy is useful but not critical to comprehension.
<Birkir> The <title> ag on the pag, when usedcorrectly, is almost always sufficient, it can agree with an h1 or an h2 heading on the page to signal the main content.
<LJWatson> MC: Inclined to suggest one of two actions - 1. Make it 2.0, or 2. Drop this.
<LJWatson> JC: Inclined to say drop it.
<LJWatson> +1 to JC.
<Birkir> I do not see the benefits of this at a glance. I think adding another confusing role for bad designers will be likely to create more confusion rather than the opposite (and the cause of this is illogical use of headings).
<LJWatson> JC: Looks like Rich was considering ePub where the book title would be an h1, except the heading hierarchy scopes to each chapter, not the entire book.
<LJWatson> MC: I'm leaning to bumping this to 2.0, then revisiting the discussion again.
<LJWatson> JC: Could we change the bug title to "Page title", then bump it to 2.0?
<LJWatson> MC: Yes.
<jcraig> issue-660
<trackbot> issue-660 -- Implicit labels for region determined by heading and host languages. -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/660
<jcraig> Authors SHOULD ensure that a region has a heading referenced by aria-labelledby. This heading is provided by an instance of the standard host language heading element or an instance of an element with role heading that contains the heading text.
<LJWatson> JC: This is a hybrid between HTML implicit labels and aria-labelledby labels.
<jcraig> The prose implies implicit headings (first heading inside region) is sufficient but the RFC-2119 comment explicitly requires aria-labelledby. May also need to add an "implicit” heading determination bullet to the text alt computation.
<LJWatson> JC: Not sure this is needed for 1.1
<LJWatson> BG: Is there a requirement that a region needs a heading.
<LJWatson> JC: It would be a "should" not "must".
<LJWatson> BG: Look for explicit label, then look for heading, then if neither determine it has no label?
<LJWatson> JC: Yes.
<LJWatson> LW: The region role maps to HTML section element. Debate still going on.
<LJWatson> JC: Suggest we wait till 2.0 for this.
<LJWatson> rrsagentm, make minutes
<MichaelC> scribe: Birkir
<jcraig> issue-637?
<trackbot> issue-637 -- Math role should strongly encourage native MathML over custom renderings use "math" role -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/637
<jcraig> Native accessibility of MathML is *so much better* than using a generic math role. The ARIA spec should consider strongly discouraging use of the math role in favor of MathML. We might even go as far as deprecating the math role in favor of native MathML.
<jcraig> See also: ISSUE-641: Abstract role section allows nameFrom content, and some subclassed roles under section do not allow nameFrom:contents (even definition, img, and math, which seems like they should)
Ability to interactively explore math formulas is part of MathML, at least on some mobile devices. Some platforms even do MathML implementation natively.
role="math" is more of a legacy requirement from before the days of MathML.
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add spec text encouraging use of MathML over the math role, re: issue-637 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1494 - Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637 [on James Craig - due 2014-08-11].
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1494 with issue-641
<trackbot> action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with issue-641.
Mames ACTION: Make an edit to close the issue.
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1494 with issue-637
<trackbot> action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with issue-637.
<jcraig> product-17
<trackbot> Sorry, but product details are unavailable.
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1494 with product-17
<trackbot> action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with product-17.
<jcraig> action-1494
<trackbot> action-1494 -- James Craig to Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637 -- due 2014-08-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1494
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1494 with issue-637
<trackbot> action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with issue-637.
<MichaelC> close issue-637
<trackbot> Closed issue-637.
zakam, next item
<jcraig> issue-534
<trackbot> issue-534 -- grid data model example may need clarification based on outcome of HTML Issue 204 -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/534
<MichaelC> html-issue-204?
<trackbot> html-issue-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- closed
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
Remainder of an html5 issue regarding idrefs to hidden content. We asked for an exception for that for ARIA.
<jcraig> For example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with CSS but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.
JC action item, pull the comment starting with "for example..." from the issue description.
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "For example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with CSS but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1495 - Remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "for example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with css but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart." [on James Craig - due 2014-08-11].
<jcraig> associate action-1495 with product-17
<trackbot> action-1495 (Remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "for example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with css but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.") associated with product-17.
<jcraig> associate action-1495 with issue-534
<trackbot> action-1495 (Remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "for example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with css but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.") associated with issue-534.
<jcraig> close issue-534
<trackbot> Closed issue-534.
Close issue 534 wth no further action.
nakim, next iem
<jcraig> issue-632
<trackbot> issue-632 -- Define ¨accessible description¨ -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/632
<jcraig> http://www.webcitation.org/673DWtJcY
<jcraig> What is an accessible description?
<jcraig> ARIA includes an algorithm for calculating accessible names and descriptions (§5.2.7). The term "accessible name" has a normative definition (§4). The term "accessible description" should also be defined. Examples should be given of the difference between the two.
<jcraig> comments from ben hawkes-lewis
<jcraig> Accessible Name
<jcraig> The accessible name is the name of a user interface element. Each platform accessibility API provides the accessible name property. The value of the accessible name may be derived from a visible (e.g., the visible text on a button) or invisible (e.g., the text alternative that describes an icon) property of the user interface element.
<jcraig> A simple use for the accessible name property may be illustrated by an "OK" button. The text "OK" is the accessible name. When the button receives focus, assistive technologies may concatenate the platform's role description with the accessible name. For example, a screen reader may speak "push-button OK" or "OK button". The order of concatenation and specifics of the role description (e.g. "button", "push-button", "clickable button") are determined by platform
<jcraig> accessibility APIs or assistive technologies.
description varies from platform to platform, it will be a challenge to write up a consistent and clear definition.
Idea, remove references to "accessible description". Platforms do not support it consistently.
<jcraig> write definition in context of dialog label and dialog description
Discussion on whether we are talking about accessible description in the platform APIs vs. the use of the aria-describedby attribute in ARIA.
<MichaelC> issue-632: Preliminary discussion 4 Aug 2014 http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html#item09
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-632 Define ¨accessible description¨.
Historical perspective, ARIA 1.0 roles did not necessarily map clearly to the platform accessibility APIs
We need more discussion on this topic.
<MichaelC> (this appears to be a ¨meaty topic¨)
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