See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 21 July 2014
<jcraig> scribe: jcraig
Cyns and Cooper action to work on this item this week
Cyns just back from vacation but plan is to centrally track bugs across implementation vendors: WebKit, Moz, Trident (IE), etc
<janina> scribe: janina
jcraig: Does this mean trident bugs would have some kind of tracking?
<jcraig> JC: Does Trident have a public tracker?
jcraig: Trident, the IE engine, doesn't have public tracking, yes?
<jcraig> MC: Not sure. Need to ask Cyns.
mc: don't know to what extent we can build
<jcraig> scribe: jcraig
Spec refers to DOM tree changes, where UAIG refers to Accessibility tree changes. UAIG would account for things like showing a hidden div, where the spec version would not.
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#aria-relevant
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_events_visibility
I think the UAIG version is what we want, so the spec (values table of #aria-relevant) would need to be updated to refer to changes in the Accessible tree rather than in the DOM. Probably want some prose updates in aria-live and aria-relevant, too.
<clown> issue-545?
<trackbot> issue-545 -- Resolve live region and aria-relevant conflict between spec an UAIG. -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/545
<janina> scribe: janina
jcraig: I have action to propose
an edit
... Believe from the F2F
... not sure why this is "meaty"
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_events_visibility
jcraig: mozilla differs from
other implementations in that sometimes it shows hidden nodes
in the accessibility tree (marked as hidden). Need spec to
disambiguate AX tree, not DOM tree.
... ambiguous depending on whether dom or aapi tree
... need to be explicit, normative, but needs to be documented
and really rather editorial
mc: perhaps he thought needed
discussion
... or just a ping
... suspect this is sufficient for now
jcraig: re-reading the issue --
if wg is comfortable closing based on action, i'm ok with
that
... my modus is to leave issue open until action is
accepted
mc: agree to keeping issue open pending acceptance of disposition
<jcraig> js: Need a standard procedure for this. Probably err on the side of keeping issues open until ACTIONs are complete.
<jcraig> scibe: jcraig
<clown> issue-638?
<trackbot> issue-638 -- Generic container roles for things like div/span… -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
<jcraig> Actions on Cyns and jcraig
<jcraig> MC: Don't want to have Cyns or Microsoft feel they have open questions while the rest of the group is resolved/
<clown> issue-397?
<trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
<jcraig> JN: we know we have *at least* some number of rows and that there are more.
<scribe> scribe: janina
jcraig: option leave setsize as
currently known and indicate more
... could be a token, ARIA-Indeterminate=Incomplete, or some
such
<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to propose -1 as a value
jd: Do we really need another property? I understand real number is valuable, but why not -1, means "I can't do anything with this"
jn: we tend to do things like "1
of 10 of 100+" which indicates good info, and an unknown
limit
... -1 would break that
jcraig: speculating on fallback
mc: aria-setsize is integer
jcraig: might break strict backwards compat, but we could finess that
mc: should check our assumptions
on fallbacks
... could be OK, but we need to know
<jcraig> could allow "100+" or "9999+" as an allowed value
mc: allowing + at end of integer, any others?
<jcraig> ">9999"
jn: google mail does "of
many"
... google also has "1 to 20 of about xxx"
mc: would need escaping of greater-than symbol, an authoring problem
<jcraig> mc: would need to escape < so lets avoid it ">9999"
<jcraig> scribe: jcraig
proposals: allow omitting the
value (not required attr) to mean indeterminate
... add a + character to the integer value "100+" to indicate
more than 100.
... new aria-indeterminate attr with token values
(dropped)
<scribe> ACTION: joanie to raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1485 - Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-07-28].
<scribe> ACTION: joanie to inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1486 - Inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397 [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-07-28].
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1485 with issue-397
<trackbot> action-1485 (Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format) associated with issue-397.
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1486 with issue-397
<trackbot> action-1486 (Inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397) associated with issue-397.
<scribe> ACTION: cyns to raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with IE source?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1487 - Raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with ie source?) [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-28].
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1487 with issue-397
<trackbot> action-1487 (Raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with ie source?)) associated with issue-397.
<scribe> ACTION: jcraig to propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1488 - Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 [on James Craig - due 2014-07-28].
<MichaelC> action-1485 due 4 weeks
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1488 with issue-397
<trackbot> Set action-1485 Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format due date to 2014-08-18.
<trackbot> action-1488 (Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397) associated with issue-397.
issue-397: call discussion revolved around allow ommission (indeterminate set size) and additional value format (e.g. "999+") for the large set sizes that are indeterminate but with known minimum size (jn: *at least* this large a set)
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-397 Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size.
<clown> issue-510?
<trackbot> issue-510 -- Review all Author MUST statements in spec (and UAIG?) -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/510
mc: author must statements hard to enforce. need to review each
jc: benefit is primarily for validation.
<janina> there's RFC6919's "ought to"
mc: could turn these into validator statements
jc: more useful as author statements, validators can infer
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#conformance_checkers
<MichaelC> issue-510: Author must statements are there for a reason, so conformance checkers have something to key off of. Testing is trivial just by creating valid markup examples. No other good reason to remove. Closing issue.
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-510 Review all Author MUST statements in spec (and UAIG?).
<MichaelC> close issue-510
<trackbot> Closed issue-510.
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask about janina's rfc-6919 "ought to"
<clown> issue-619?
<trackbot> issue-619 -- ARIA 1.1 should disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language attribute. -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/619
<janina> scribe: janina
jcraig: concerned, maybe too
concerned, conflicts range valuenow and value
... some attribs more or less the same as lable
... but aria-label always overides
... maybe if we say aria-label cannot be overridden by ml
... editors of other specs have done some wacky things --
that's the concern here
... and I may be over-concerned
... we always aria labeling to win, that's the point
<clown> +1
mc: host lang section allows certain degree of overide
mc aria wins unless ... ...
mc: not providing limits, perhaps we need to document limits
jcraig: perhaps alt wins over aria-label, may complicate computation
mc: avoided disaster, but perhaps should develop this section
jcraig aria-label and aria-labeledby are the two main ones
mc: perhaps "with the exception of the following ..."
<jcraig> i might just be paranoid. have no evidence that any spec authors/editors would do this, but we could limit the host language
<MichaelC> ACTION: cooper to propose spec text to limit what ARIA attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1489 - Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-07-28].
<MichaelC> associate action-1489 with issue-619
<trackbot> action-1489 (Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby)) associated with issue-619.
<clown> issue-610?
<trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
jcraig: could have combos
associated with in line, so auto updates when top level
updates
... but if focus changes ... still ok, no?
jn: yes
... our problem at that point is sr behavior
... switching into their sr mode
... issue is getting back to the widget
... because now nav virtual buffer in sr
jcraig: so manages focus?
jn: yes
... spec would need to define the expected behavior here
<jcraig> product-17?
<trackbot> Sorry, but product details are unavailable.
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#combobox
<jcraig> issue-640?
<trackbot> issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- closed
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640
<jcraig> ACTION-1362?
<trackbot> ACTION-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2014-02-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
<jcraig> issue-610: related to ACTION-1362
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-610 Comboboxes should allow complex children elements.
<jcraig> ACTION: jnurthen to propose spec text edit for issue-610: Comboboxes should allow complex children elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1490 - Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements [on James Nurthen - due 2014-07-28].
<jcraig> trackbot, associate ACTION-1490 with issue-610
<trackbot> ACTION-1490 (Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements) associated with issue-610.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/NEed/Need/ Succeeded: s/mozilla differs from other implementations/mozilla differs from other implementations in that sometimes it shows hidden nodes in the accessibility tree (marked as hidden). Need spec to disambiguate AX tree, not DOM tree./ Succeeded: s/phps/perhaps/ Succeeded: s/phps/perhaps/g Found Scribe: jcraig Inferring ScribeNick: jcraig Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina Found Scribe: jcraig Inferring ScribeNick: jcraig Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina Found Scribe: jcraig Inferring ScribeNick: jcraig Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina Scribes: jcraig, janina ScribeNicks: jcraig, janina Default Present: Michael_Cooper, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, James_Craig, +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Stefan_Schnabel, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Susann_Keohane, +1.415.624.aabb, James_Nurthen, Lisa_Seeman Present: Michael_Cooper Joanmarie_Diggs janina James_Craig +49.322.110.8.aaaa Stefan_Schnabel Joseph_Scheuhammer Susann_Keohane +1.415.624.aabb James_Nurthen Lisa_Seeman Regrets: Birkir_Gunnarsson Cynthia_Shelly Christopher_Gallello Rich_Schwerdtfeger Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0033.html Found Date: 21 Jul 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html People with action items: cooper cyns jcraig jnurthen joanie[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]