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<trackbot> Date: 19 June 2014
<a-jealli> rrs agent, make logs
<kford> chair: Kelly_Ford_Jim_Allan
<scribe> scribe: allanj
<scribe> scribenick: allanj
<kford> Group making introductions to Jennifer.
<kford> zakim take up item 3
all: discussion of changing meeting time.
js: will reach out to Asia folks to see what times work
kf: would like to move time if we get more participation.
<kford> scribe: kford
JA: This came to the list, did
anyone have issues? I didn't.
... These were our comments on image description. They took some, ignored some. All seemed reasonable.
JA reading parts of the mail.
JA: Several like this.
... Anyone else read or have thoughts.
kford: I read, seemed reasonable.
JA: Jeanne do we need to do anything else.
GL: I do consider it unfortunate
that they are rejecting some of our comments but it isn't
... Such as having it apply to more elements.
JA: I could put that in the reply.
JS: GL can you give me a bit more of your concenrs. Maybe I can pursue informally.
GL: As far as I can tell there is no cost for making longdesc apply to more than image aside from authoring tools having to support. Checking tools would have to be modified too.
JA: Also browser implications since they've not been doing longdesc at all.
GL: Not sure it would be required for them to do anything other than accept as a valid syntax. We in UAAG would be placing the requirement.
JA: They would have to show implementation.
JA continues to expand on implementation requirements.
GL: If it was generalized to other elements to div are you saying they'd have to find two implementations on every element?
JA: I believe so yes when I look
at their other tests.
... Want me to say something?
JS: We could say we want this to be in the next version?
GL: Unless there is an alternative.
JA: I know they are working on this with some described work.
KF: Fish or cut bate, including this in the reply, asking Jeanne to do something informally or doing nothing.
Group will have something mentioned in the reply.
<scribe> Scribe: Jennifer
<allanj> gl: talking about
<allanj> > 2. Contrast with ARIA DescribedBy: The use case "Referring to an
<allanj> > existing description" sounds like exactly what ARIA DescribedBy is
<allanj> > used for, so it might be good to clarify why longdesc is also needed,
<allanj> > and whether you're recommending one or both be used.
<allanj> aria-describedBy must be used on the same page as the thing it describes.
<allanj> Among other things, this means a single description at a given URI cannot
<allanj> be re-used by multiple instances of the same image. This would fail to
<a-jealli> JA: read mail reply
<allanj> meet the "Re-use" requirement, which is relied on by several use cases.
<allanj> their response is directed at UAWG but no changes made to the document.
<allanj> Jim will add to document. for the TF to clarify in the document why aria-describedby and longdesc
<a-jealli> KF: comment issue is not worth the energy to fight for, we will live with it
<a-jealli> group: item has been addressed but not sure what can be done
<allanj> all JO comments have been done.
<a-jealli> JA: edited and sent to JS
<allanj> summary of 2.11 LG01: I noticed an error in guideline 2.11. In the summary, each criterion is identified (e.g. stop/pause/resume 2.11.5). However there is a mismatch starting at 2.11.8. In the summary, 2.11.8 should describe enabling and disabling of tracks while 2.11.9 should address contrast adjustments. However in the following details section, there is no content about tracks, 2.11.8 is...
<allanj> ...used to describe contrast and 2.11.9 is not listed.
<allanj> That criterion is very important because it likely address captions and audio description of timed media.
<a-jealli> JA: this seems editorial give to JS
<allanj> ACTION: Jeanne to repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment LG01 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-986 - Repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment lg01 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-26].
<allanj> LG02: To save some crucial load time and bandwidth for mobile users, it is custom to compress stylesheets and scripts (the process is usually called minification). Considering this, it would be highly beneficial if the saved stylesheet were saved in a pretty-print manner to facilitate authoring by users.
<allanj> Note that minification is not as important for local stylesheet as files loaded locally don't incur the overheads of HTTP requests.
<a-jealli> JA: ask for input
<a-jealli> GL: must be tools that can be used
<a-jealli> Group: agree
<allanj> ACTION: allanj to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
<allanj> ACTION: jallan to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-987 - Create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted css not minified [on Jim Allan - due 2014-06-26].
<allanj> LG03: 2.11.2 and 2.11.3 requires the ability to block execution or playback of media. However in 2.4.5, searching a page should also search in captions, which may not be loaded as per 2.11.2 / 2.11.3. The examples for 2.4.5 mention that the user agent moves to the specified point in the video.
<allanj> Am i misunderstanding?
<a-jealli> JA: conflict or a misunderstanding
<a-jealli> Group: Discussing captions vs document. What is actually getting down loaded? When are captions downloaded?
<a-jealli> GL: 2.11.1 auto play over ride discussion
<a-jealli> JA: note or move over to 2.4.5.
<a-jealli> JS: does it apply to just 2.4.5. or move to top
<a-jealli> JR: Example of issue
<a-jealli> JA: Infinite scrolling
<a-jealli> thank you
<a-jealli> KF: discuss push back from browsers
Group sorting out comment status
<a-jealli> JA All editorials, Erik all done, comment dispositions not all up to date
<Greg> That is, push back from browser developers if we were to try to require content to be downloaded early, just so the user could search alternative content. We are explicitly instead adding a note to clarify that we are NOT requiring that.
<allanj> H03: 1.8.14 is a good idea but I think we need to make it clear that persistence is not guaranteed if the page elements have changed and there needs to be some way to notify people that the marked content has changed or been lost.
JA: Doesn't this seem related to infinite scroll.
<allanj> and searching, or live regions
GL: this is no different than having a bookmark to an internal link and that link might be gone.
JR goes over a couple of examples of facebook and snapchat messages that disappear over time.
<a-jealli> JA: JS numbers on 1.8.17 is has something not come through
<a-jealli> JS: comments where written by JR
<a-jealli> JR: not amending but adding another case
<allanj> SH04: For 1.10.1 are we assuming that close elements will be close in the DOM. I'd think this would be hard based on the visual rendering, and would require some idea of the semantics of the association. I'd also think that a label to a form element could be close in DOM for distant in the visual rendering based on the CSS, how is this handled?
<a-jealli> GL: doesn't understand comment and explains his reasoning
<allanj> gl: the relationship is 'recognized', spatial proximity should not matter
<allanj> jr: what does "access" mean? can the user go there, is there a tooltip, or access to the information.
<a-jealli> GL: access does that mean go there or access to info
<allanj> gl: access to information, not navigation.
<Greg> The Intent and Examples clarify this is not about navigation, but about presenting related information to the user.
Group keeps discussing what we mean about the path to an element.
Talking about how unbounded this can become.
<allanj> from the implementation doc: Some users have difficulty perceiving, remembering, or understanding the relationships between elements and their descriptions. Certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manner, such as relationships with 'id' attributes and child elements (e.g. Ajax widgets and with form elements). This allows users to better understand these relationships even if the...
<allanj> ...elements are not adjacent on the screen or the DOM.
<Greg> Jan is correct that the SC is vague about how many different types of relationships need to be supported.
<a-jealli> JR: How does a browser know when it is fullfulled
<Greg> Also note that the title of the SC doesn't really match with the actual wording, as the former says "show related elements" but the SC does not require showing any elements, but rather information from or about those elements.
<a-jealli> GL: suggest change title or sc
<Jan> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents labels for at least the following element relations: (Level AA)
<Jan> - Form control labels
<Jan> - tyable cell headers
<a-jealli> JA: Headers and id or relationships with nested elements, open for discussion
<allanj> +1 to Jan proposal
<allanj> kf: +1 to jan proposal
<a-jealli> KF: agree with JR 1.10.1
<Jan> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents labels for at least the following element relationships: (Level AA)
<Jan> - Form control labels
<Jan> - table cell headers
<Jan> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents adjacent labels for at least the following element relationships: (Level AA)
<Jan> - Form control labels
<Jan> - table cell headers
<a-jealli> Group Discuss JR proposal
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/scowling/scrolling/ Found Scribe: allanj Inferring ScribeNick: allanj Found ScribeNick: allanj Found Scribe: kford Inferring ScribeNick: kford Found Scribe: Jennifer Scribes: allanj, kford, Jennifer ScribeNicks: allanj, kford Default Present: kford, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Jim_Allan Present: Jim Jan Greg Kelly Jeanne Regrets: Kim Found Date: 19 Jun 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html People with action items: allanj jallan jeanne WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]