User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

12 Jun 2014

See also: IRC log


Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Jan, Kelly
jimAllan, KellyFord


<trackbot> Date: 12 June 2014

ms09 start

<scribe> scribe: Allanj

Liaise other WG

js: W3 creating Super Groups (CSS, Web-Apps, HTML, etc.)
... want to change the way they charter

burden of review on the smaller horizontal groups.

need to follow-up in CG

close item 1

close item 2

MS09 Subjectivity must be eliminated


<Jan> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-direct-command

jr: we define directly
... focus on 2.3.1 - 3

<jeanne> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-keyboard-command

jr: we removed the word "important"

<Jan> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-keyboard-command

js: resolve differences between definitions

gl: they are cross referenced
... Command and Keyboard Command
... they are similar

<Greg> We have duplication/overlap between “commands : direct commands” and “keyboard command”.

gl: need to be merged.
... keyboard command is a subset of command. tho there is a difference
... command is base on action taken not the input method.
... keyboard command is modality dependent
... if we just move it, won't be parallel

jr: key-command should stay. and cross link

ja: if we crosslink do we need any other mods?

js: in 2.3.1 - move focus directly...
... may need to define directly.

kp: as in one step

js: hmm, 2 key combo

kp: ctrl g, ctrl l is a direct command, but tab-tab is not
... so it is a non-repeated keystroke.

gl: tab is sequential nav.
... repeatable is not so important
... regardless of current focus location, better than non-repeatable

<Greg> We could note that even direct commands are *somewhat* context dependent; that is, in most cases they work when focus is on anything in the window, but only apply when focus *is* in that window.

ja: is direct command similar to selecting from JAWS heading list?

js: do we have any mobile examples for direct nav?

<Greg> Examples of Direct Navigation commands in Firefox are Alt+D to move focus to the address bar, Ctrl+F to move focus to the Find field, the Home key to scroll the viewport to its top, etc.

<Greg> Also Alt+F displays and moves focus to the File menu.

kf: links list is pretty direct. no focus involved, and can use first letter to jump through headings

kp: can you use 2 letters.

kf: jaws does not but it is doable

jr: talking about jumping directly to elements on the screen

<Greg> Alt+F is actually a direct activation command, as is Ctrl+O for Open, Ctrl+S for Save, etc.

jr: ctrl F, start entering text, will eventually land on target...is that direct

gl: is context dependent, if you have to stop and think about what you are doing, then not direct

kp: several variables

<Greg> A command can be direct regardless of whether it takes one input or many, as long as each step is not context dependent. As Kim says, you should not have to stop to check on where the focus is at any step in the process.

jr: mousekeys sub actions, 1 5 6 go for a link

kp: if you have to think between commands not direct

jr: nav system is direct if allows focus to move to an item without passing through other similar items

kp: if navigating to a specific section, then 2 commands, section list, then find appropriate section.

gl: other taxonomies, prefix navigation.

kp: similar to browsing vs searching.

question: what is direct navigation

jr: how many steps are involved in a direct command

<jeanne> The real issue is to address MS09 "It is highly debatable as to which navigation methods are considered as "directly" navigable. "

<jeanne> type written macro, keyboard shortcut is directly

kp: a macro is direct, keyboard short cut is direct, tab is not
... typing a T is not. it is nav to a subset of larger navigation

<jeanne> tab keys would not be, the letter t, that brings you to a the first thing starting with t

direct command to a section or chunk or similar elements.

js: like independent of current location.

gl: part of definition

jr: seq. nav...show me the next one.
... in direct nav, you must know where you are going. how do you find out?
... visually, aurally - headings list.

gl: or explore the entire page sequentially, then remember where you want to go, then go there.

jr: what are we asking for. ... a new feature ... make users more efficient
... a generalize system - add indicator for enabled elements, to move directly to a specific element

gl: number of keystrokes is immaterial, its about functioning with chunks

jr: is this definable enough that we can require it of UAs and talk about methods for making this happen

kp: make sure you don't have items you can't get to without clicking.
... then there are enabled elements - numbering, or something like that

<Greg> Direct Commands are referenced in 2.1.1 and 2.3.1-4.

<Greg> 2.1.1 does not distinguish between direct and other commands, so the definition might not be relevant. In fact, I'm not sure what we're trying to exclude with the clause.

<Greg> 2.3.1 needs to have an exception when there are too many enabled elements (e.g. 500 buttons).

<Greg> 2.3.2 needs to have an exception for enabled elements that do not support an activation action (e.g. a text entry field).

<Jan> 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation by Heading and within Tables

ja: no where do we say that the UA must provide *direct* nav to non enabled elements
... directly is not subjective. for example the MouseKeys extension allows a user to directly navigate to 'enabled' elements.

<jeanne> From Implementing 2.3.1: People who are blind or have mobility problems often find it difficult or impossible to use a mouse to move the viewport to, and focus on, important elements. Some other form of direct navigation – such as numbers or key combinations assigned to important elements – should be available. Direct navigation can be accessed via keyboard, which also supports other forms of

<jeanne> input, such as gesture, speech and touch.

js: we have defined direct commands. we mention mouseless browsing extension.

<jeanne> Directly: using a direct command (link)

UAWG removed term 'important'

added a new definition for "directly" to make it clear that it is a direct command.

these two changes make SC more objective.

gl: because we had such a hard time defining 'direct command' that we need to be clearer.

<Greg> Not so much defining it, but we ended up discussing is so long and addressing confusion about what is and isn't. For example, clarifying that it's not a matter of how many keystrokes, and that typing a letter repeatedly to get to the fifth item starting with that letter is not adequate.

<Greg> Thus I feel we could add some more language helping clarify it, including a list of examples.

gl: clarify list...these things are 'direct commands', these things are not and why.

glossary is normative.

could put a clarifying list of examples in the implementing document in 2.3.1, etc.

to do:

cross link 'command' and keyboard command definitions

adding 'directly' definition

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-985 - Add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-19].

<jeanne> https://github.com/jspellman/UAAG

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2014-06-12 18:42:15 $

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Found Scribe: Allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: allanj
Default Present: Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Jan, Kelly
Present: Kim_Patch Greg_Lowney Jeanne Jim_Allan Jan Kelly
Regrets: Eric
Found Date: 12 Jun 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: jeanne

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