See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 12 June 2014
<scribe> scribe: Allanj
js: W3 creating Super Groups
(CSS, Web-Apps, HTML, etc.)
... want to change the way they charter
burden of review on the smaller horizontal groups.
need to follow-up in CG
close item 1
close item 2
jr: we define directly
... focus on 2.3.1 - 3
jr: we removed the word "important"
js: resolve differences between definitions
gl: they are cross
... Command and Keyboard Command
... they are similar
<Greg> We have duplication/overlap between “commands : direct commands” and “keyboard command”.
gl: need to be merged.
... keyboard command is a subset of command. tho there is a difference
... command is base on action taken not the input method.
... keyboard command is modality dependent
... if we just move it, won't be parallel
jr: key-command should stay. and cross link
ja: if we crosslink do we need any other mods?
js: in 2.3.1 - move focus
... may need to define directly.
kp: as in one step
js: hmm, 2 key combo
kp: ctrl g, ctrl l is a direct
command, but tab-tab is not
... so it is a non-repeated keystroke.
gl: tab is sequential nav.
... repeatable is not so important
... regardless of current focus location, better than non-repeatable
<Greg> We could note that even direct commands are *somewhat* context dependent; that is, in most cases they work when focus is on anything in the window, but only apply when focus *is* in that window.
ja: is direct command similar to selecting from JAWS heading list?
js: do we have any mobile examples for direct nav?
<Greg> Examples of Direct Navigation commands in Firefox are Alt+D to move focus to the address bar, Ctrl+F to move focus to the Find field, the Home key to scroll the viewport to its top, etc.
<Greg> Also Alt+F displays and moves focus to the File menu.
kf: links list is pretty direct. no focus involved, and can use first letter to jump through headings
kp: can you use 2 letters.
kf: jaws does not but it is doable
jr: talking about jumping directly to elements on the screen
<Greg> Alt+F is actually a direct activation command, as is Ctrl+O for Open, Ctrl+S for Save, etc.
jr: ctrl F, start entering text, will eventually land on target...is that direct
gl: is context dependent, if you have to stop and think about what you are doing, then not direct
kp: several variables
<Greg> A command can be direct regardless of whether it takes one input or many, as long as each step is not context dependent. As Kim says, you should not have to stop to check on where the focus is at any step in the process.
jr: mousekeys sub actions, 1 5 6 go for a link
kp: if you have to think between commands not direct
jr: nav system is direct if allows focus to move to an item without passing through other similar items
kp: if navigating to a specific section, then 2 commands, section list, then find appropriate section.
gl: other taxonomies, prefix navigation.
kp: similar to browsing vs searching.
question: what is direct navigation
jr: how many steps are involved in a direct command
<jeanne> The real issue is to address MS09 "It is highly debatable as to which navigation methods are considered as "directly" navigable. "
<jeanne> type written macro, keyboard shortcut is directly
kp: a macro is direct, keyboard
short cut is direct, tab is not
... typing a T is not. it is nav to a subset of larger navigation
<jeanne> tab keys would not be, the letter t, that brings you to a the first thing starting with t
direct command to a section or chunk or similar elements.
js: like independent of current location.
gl: part of definition
jr: seq. nav...show me the next
... in direct nav, you must know where you are going. how do you find out?
... visually, aurally - headings list.
gl: or explore the entire page sequentially, then remember where you want to go, then go there.
jr: what are we asking for. ... a
new feature ... make users more efficient
... a generalize system - add indicator for enabled elements, to move directly to a specific element
gl: number of keystrokes is immaterial, its about functioning with chunks
jr: is this definable enough that we can require it of UAs and talk about methods for making this happen
kp: make sure you don't have
items you can't get to without clicking.
... then there are enabled elements - numbering, or something like that
<Greg> Direct Commands are referenced in 2.1.1 and 2.3.1-4.
<Greg> 2.1.1 does not distinguish between direct and other commands, so the definition might not be relevant. In fact, I'm not sure what we're trying to exclude with the clause.
<Greg> 2.3.1 needs to have an exception when there are too many enabled elements (e.g. 500 buttons).
<Greg> 2.3.2 needs to have an exception for enabled elements that do not support an activation action (e.g. a text entry field).
<Jan> 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation by Heading and within Tables
ja: no where do we say that the
UA must provide *direct* nav to non enabled elements
... directly is not subjective. for example the MouseKeys extension allows a user to directly navigate to 'enabled' elements.
<jeanne> From Implementing 2.3.1: People who are blind or have mobility problems often find it difficult or impossible to use a mouse to move the viewport to, and focus on, important elements. Some other form of direct navigation – such as numbers or key combinations assigned to important elements – should be available. Direct navigation can be accessed via keyboard, which also supports other forms of
<jeanne> input, such as gesture, speech and touch.
js: we have defined direct commands. we mention mouseless browsing extension.
<jeanne> Directly: using a direct command (link)
UAWG removed term 'important'
added a new definition for "directly" to make it clear that it is a direct command.
these two changes make SC more objective.
gl: because we had such a hard time defining 'direct command' that we need to be clearer.
<Greg> Not so much defining it, but we ended up discussing is so long and addressing confusion about what is and isn't. For example, clarifying that it's not a matter of how many keystrokes, and that typing a letter repeatedly to get to the fifth item starting with that letter is not adequate.
<Greg> Thus I feel we could add some more language helping clarify it, including a list of examples.
gl: clarify list...these things are 'direct commands', these things are not and why.
glossary is normative.
could put a clarifying list of examples in the implementing document in 2.3.1, etc.
cross link 'command' and keyboard command definitions
adding 'directly' definition
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-985 - Add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-19].
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/items/enabled elements/ Found Scribe: Allanj Inferring ScribeNick: allanj Default Present: Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Jan, Kelly Present: Kim_Patch Greg_Lowney Jeanne Jim_Allan Jan Kelly Regrets: Eric Found Date: 12 Jun 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html People with action items: jeanne[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]