Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

14 Apr 2014

See also: IRC log


Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Gerardo Capiel (gcapiel), Frederick Hirsch (fjh), Rob Sanderson (azaroth), Tzviya Siegman (tzviya), Liza Daly (liza), Ivan Herman (ivan), Markus Gylling (mgylling), Brady Duga (duga), Bert Bos (Bert), Paul Belfanti (pbelfanti), Karen Myers, Michael Miller (AH_Miller), David Stroup, Casey Dougherty, Vladimir Levantovsky (vlad), Suzanne Taylor, Luc Audrain (Luc), Laura Fowler
Thierry, Alan, Julie


mgylling: before agenda, Michael Miller has joined W3C from Antenna House

AH_Miller: From Antenna House for 11 years
... we work with paged media
... interested in EPUB as well
... been wanting to participate for some time, we finally convinced the president to join W3C
... to work with the standards that influence our business so much

mgylling: I expect that CSS and layouts are primary interests

<Vlad> Sorry I am late

mgylling: are you aware of Latinreq

AH_Miller: I've just started looking at it, along with Mr. Murakami

mgylling: great, and welcome!
... next Monday, major holiday in Sweden and most Euro countries

<fjh> regrets for next week

<azaroth> regrets for next week too

<david_stroup> regrets for next week

mgylling: easy choice. Next monday's meeting is cancelled
... quick question about organizing a metadata call
... should we discuss this here?

Ivan: Bill Kasdorf is out this week, so not being organized yet
... I was travelling
... We should wait for Bill Kasdorf to come back, then organize call
... many emails recently from Luc and Julie Morris about mini-ONIX. Looks promising

mgylling: Good. One upcoming meeting will be review of Bill/Madi interview sessions.
... we could have metadata orgy in two weeks :)
... two topics for today
... Thierry is not here today
... but with Ivan and Karen here we can talk about
... Topic: w3c specs of interest to digital publishing community

<mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/W3C_specs_for_DPUB

mgylling: this is one of the deliverables we were charted to produce
... first sentence quotes charter
... how is this intended to be used?
... it's already exceedingly large, and such things become difficult to work with

Ivan: w3c doesn't have any more say than anyone else
... what's useful?
... what information is useful for the community?
... I would probably separate recommendations (cast in concrete)
... perhaps separate primers, tutorials (???)
... most important thing is probably documents that are important to community but haven't reached rec status
... maybe get current plans on status
... references to Editor's drafts as well as published versions
... which of these are implemented? IDPF and BISG are already dealing with this on some level
... goal is getting info out of the maze of w3c pages, make it more accessible to the publishing community
... leave it to the group to decide what is useful

mgylling: right
... this could be a living resource, stay as wiki page

Ivan usually what happens is that when a WG closes, wiki pages become read-only

Ivan: we might need to move to different wiki outside of DPUB, after DPUB closes

mgylling: you mentioned palatibility
... the intended audience isn't exclusively w3c working groups and members

Ivan: meant for publishing community, NOT w3c

pbelfanti: target is general pub community, so it needs to be less technical
... to set context, etc. then have links to deeper content

mgylling: some kind of overlay as gentle introduction?

pbelfanti: in layout and styling, the order is not how you'd want to digest
... some organization along those lines would be good
... plus high-level description of what sections are about, who would be interested
... under the premise that the target audience is the publishing community
... including non-technical users

Ivan: I would try to put it in priority order
... the first target audience is the more technical folks within the publishing community
... how to I find latest version of X CSS module? That's hard to do now.
... each document does have an abstract, per w3c pub rules. We could add that to table
... going way beyond that, eventually that might make sense, but is lots of work

pbelfanti: the abstracts are pretty clear
... let's have a bit more heirarchy to guide people in a larger sense

mgylling: multiple tables
... one more question - this looks both forward and backward in time
... we have XML namespaces listed. I don't know if that's interesting information, since it's already a rec
... it's not something people need to work on going forward

<azaroth> +1

mgylling: should we remove stuff that's not forward looking
... xml events, SMIL 3...
... it's not expected that SMIL 3 will evolve

<fjh> suggest breaking it in two, foward looking list and list of completed relevant work

Ivan: If I look at xproc, it's not even used by anything in epub
... may be used by back-end process
... there is already a separation of back-end technologies vs front end
... that's one high level cut
... I don't know if XML events are even used
... there is a need for a filter

mgylling: Paul wants multiple tables, Ivan wants separation with back-end tech vs front-end
... some aren't really related to vision and problems of publishing industry
... so we can make it smaller
... as far as doing the work, any volunteers to refactor as proposed?

Ivan: I think that we cannot expect Thierry to do filtering
... first step should be one of you guys to go through the list, exclude and define large categories
... Neither he nor I can do the filtering.

mgylling: Liza and I could work directly on wiki page
... we won't be nervous due to history :)
... more questions on our beloved table?

Luc: don't get rid of things too soon
... some might not be used now, but should be left here for future use

mgylling: example please?

Luc: xproc.
... I hope epub won't be static

fjh: : Let's keep the original as reference, valuable to have both focused short list

mgylling: ready to move on?

Accessibility and personalization task force

mgylling: Topic: discuss a11y task force from perspective of focus areas

<pbelfanti> Apoloigies, I need to drop now

mgylling: we defined small sets of goals, which a11y group did
... we want to focus on use cases, and discussion around those
... the approach is to consider the question of what exactly in a11y use cases is specific to publishing
... reading through the use cases so far
... all of them are important and valid
... but many are general use cases, not specific to publishing
... also, in terms of focus areas, if we want to seize the opportunity here, what would be highest priority?
... that's the questions we want to ask.
... how can we clean up or restructure the use cases
... and focus on publishing-specific problems
... and what should be our highest priority to affect w3c work

gcapiel: there's further work in fleshing these out
... this was a first pass before TPAC
... these are general use cases and gaps for OWP, not specific to DPUB
... the only one you could debate
... is timed text (???)
... it's already digital content
... content with media overlays
... timed text is the only specification that [dropout]

mgylling: we lost gerardo
... we can't hear you

gcapiel: I'm back.
... that's the one area where there isn't any great way to deal with that syncronized audio and text, and its very specific to digital publishing

mgylling: so that would indicate it would be nice to have a group of use cases that focus on hybrid, multiple-modality books

gcapiel: yes

mgylling: we could approach DAISY to contribute use cases
... unless you have something up your sleeve

gcapiel: Daniel was involved in timed text and knows about this
... DAISY knows a lot more about this

mgylling: action on document-wide text synchronization
... SMIL might not be best solution
... those are design issues
... that's one nice area where we can provide use cases
... what other kinds of things, even if not unique
... what are particularly critical to digital publishing
... media overlays are unlikely to be widely used in browsers
... are there other such areas?

SuzanneT: the personalization use cases fall in that category
... Pre-K through middle schools: what to do with captions
... specialized subject areas like chemistry, poetry, grammar
... more critical for textbooks

mgylling: these are most critical?

SuzanneT: we must solve these issues as an educational publisher

mgylling: in educational environ, you have timing of tests

SuzanneT: I can flesh those out

mgylling: would be good to see a complete set, I do see some that are not yet linked
... can you give overview of allowing versions?

SuzanneT: Gerardo put that in

gcapiel: I should look at that
... the issue with image descriptions allowing them to be improved over time

mgylling: then we have general a11y use cases
... the specialized subject area categories
... want to ask about infographics
... is that an area where DPUB has a more significant issue

SuzanneT: probably very important to publishers
... also can be interactive infographics, which makes it more complex

mgylling: Gerardo, you've worked with SVG folks on use cases
... should we hone in on infographics in education problem?
... presumably the solution is the same for OWP and publishing
... this is a big pain point for educational publishers
... this is a black hole where people don't know where to go

SuzanneT: say you publish an infographic for chemists
... can give data tables as backup, which is OK for professional chemist
... but that won't work for 4th grader, where that data would not be helpful

tzviya: Image descriptions have been harder for business books, like graphics designed to make stock trading fun. Hard to do an image
... description that keeps the tone

gcapiel: that graphic may be best conveyed using a combo of text and embossed material
... we've been looking at how to enhance ARIA roles in SVG to be able to provide that type of experience

mgylling: we should publish a note on a11y and personalization in publishing
... this is the kind of stuff we need in the use cases
... without going too far in solution space
... SuzanneT, you've offered to flesh out the first three
... Gerardo, you will work on versions
... DAISY will help with audio sync

SuzanneT: there's one on highlighting text, adding notes and items
... we've put that into the annotations use cases

<Luc> §q

SuzanneT: this category is accesibility of ebook features

<Luc> -q

mgylling: can OWP help solve that?

SuzanneT: with annotations, we need more data to make annotations fully a11y
... don't have other examples right now

mgylling: OK
... Gerardo, can you look into infographics restructuring?

gcapiel: sure

mgylling: it would be good if we could get the wiki main page to resemble the eventual structure of the note
... right now doesn't give me a quick overview

gcapiel: we have to take out the general use cases, not specific to DPUB

mgylling: good question

gcapiel: like math, that's a problem not specific to dpub

myglling: mentioned all the time as pain point

tzviya: lots aren't specific to publishing, but they are so common it's worth mentioning

Ivan: the math is a wrong example, in that publishing needs math way more than anyone else
... so we should keep math
... if it's on the borderline
... Suzanne, are you on WAI working group?
... ask them where these use cases should go
... at end of the day, this doc would be very valuable for those groups
... so we should sync with those groups

SuzanneT: we can move general use cases into a category
... we can hand off some things

mgylling: there is a gap
... whoever added them is right. Added descriptions are one-dimensional

SuzanneT: You mean user chooses that they want short descriptions?

mgylling: Maybe annotations can play a role, where tech is more adaptible
... first, let's create a bucket of general stuff
... then categories we populate first for publishing

SuzanneT: the categories are infographics, educational enviornment, specialized subject areas
... we should keep math separate
... and then maybe ebook feature a11y

mgylling: we can try that

gcapiel: there was also the syncronized multimedia content
... we haven't talked about semantics stuff much
... for braille, the semantics we have today in OWP may not be sufficient

mgylling: exactly, even with role attribute
... links with Tzviya and my working group on role attribute

SuzanneT: can that be under ebook feature, or should that be a separate category

mgylling: let's wait.
... we're behind on the wiki re: the role attribute
... will be easier to see later
... we'll punt for now

SuzanneT: infographics, synchronized multimedia, eBook Feature A11y, Ed Environment, Math, Specialized Subject Areas

gcapiel: reviewing user agent a11y guidelines?

Ivan: separate thing.
... Shawn, Shadi etc. would like to get feedback on that.

mgylling: should we ask for participation in that review?
... some new folks on public list
... we're out of time
... we have prototype restructuring of wiki
... more questions or remarks on a11y?

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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