See also: IRC log
mgylling: before agenda, Michael Miller has joined W3C from Antenna House
AH_Miller: From Antenna House for 11 years
... we work with paged media
... interested in EPUB as well
... been wanting to participate for some time, we finally convinced the
president to join W3C
... to work with the standards that influence our business so much
mgylling: I expect that CSS and layouts are primary interests
<Vlad> Sorry I am late
mgylling: are you aware of Latinreq
AH_Miller: I've just started looking at it, along with Mr. Murakami
mgylling: great, and welcome!
... next Monday, major holiday in Sweden and most Euro countries
<fjh> regrets for next week
<azaroth> regrets for next week too
<david_stroup> regrets for next week
mgylling: easy choice. Next monday's meeting
is cancelled
... quick question about organizing a metadata call
... should we discuss this here?
Ivan: Bill Kasdorf is out this week, so not
being organized yet
... I was travelling
... We should wait for Bill Kasdorf to come back, then organize call
... many emails recently from Luc and Julie Morris about mini-ONIX.
Looks promising
mgylling: Good. One upcoming meeting will be
review of Bill/Madi interview sessions.
... we could have metadata orgy in two weeks :)
... two topics for today
... Thierry is not here today
... but with Ivan and Karen here we can talk about
... Topic: w3c specs of interest to digital publishing community
<mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/W3C_specs_for_DPUB
mgylling: this is one of the deliverables we
were charted to produce
... first sentence quotes charter
... how is this intended to be used?
... it's already exceedingly large, and such things become difficult to
work with
Ivan: w3c doesn't have any more say than
anyone else
... what's useful?
... what information is useful for the community?
... I would probably separate recommendations (cast in concrete)
... perhaps separate primers, tutorials (???)
... most important thing is probably documents that are important to
community but haven't reached rec status
... maybe get current plans on status
... references to Editor's drafts as well as published versions
... which of these are implemented? IDPF and BISG are already dealing
with this on some level
... goal is getting info out of the maze of w3c pages, make it more
accessible to the publishing community
... leave it to the group to decide what is useful
mgylling: right
... this could be a living resource, stay as wiki page
Ivan usually what happens is that when a WG closes, wiki pages become read-only
Ivan: we might need to move to different wiki outside of DPUB, after DPUB closes
mgylling: you mentioned palatibility
... the intended audience isn't exclusively w3c working groups and
members
Ivan: meant for publishing community, NOT w3c
pbelfanti: target is general pub community,
so it needs to be less technical
... to set context, etc. then have links to deeper content
mgylling: some kind of overlay as gentle introduction?
pbelfanti: in layout and styling, the order
is not how you'd want to digest
... some organization along those lines would be good
... plus high-level description of what sections are about, who would be
interested
... under the premise that the target audience is the publishing
community
... including non-technical users
Ivan: I would try to put it in priority
order
... the first target audience is the more technical folks within the
publishing community
... how to I find latest version of X CSS module? That's hard to do now.
... each document does have an abstract, per w3c pub rules. We could add
that to table
... going way beyond that, eventually that might make sense, but is lots
of work
pbelfanti: the abstracts are pretty clear
... let's have a bit more heirarchy to guide people in a larger sense
mgylling: multiple tables
... one more question - this looks both forward and backward in time
... we have XML namespaces listed. I don't know if that's interesting
information, since it's already a rec
... it's not something people need to work on going forward
<azaroth> +1
mgylling: should we remove stuff that's not
forward looking
... xml events, SMIL 3...
... it's not expected that SMIL 3 will evolve
<fjh> suggest breaking it in two, foward looking list and list of completed relevant work
Ivan: If I look at xproc, it's not even used
by anything in epub
... may be used by back-end process
... there is already a separation of back-end technologies vs front end
... that's one high level cut
... I don't know if XML events are even used
... there is a need for a filter
mgylling: Paul wants multiple tables, Ivan
wants separation with back-end tech vs front-end
... some aren't really related to vision and problems of publishing
industry
... so we can make it smaller
... as far as doing the work, any volunteers to refactor as proposed?
Ivan: I think that we cannot expect Thierry
to do filtering
... first step should be one of you guys to go through the list, exclude
and define large categories
... Neither he nor I can do the filtering.
mgylling: Liza and I could work directly on
wiki page
... we won't be nervous due to history :)
... more questions on our beloved table?
Luc: don't get rid of things too soon
... some might not be used now, but should be left here for future use
mgylling: example please?
Luc: xproc.
... I hope epub won't be static
fjh: : Let's keep the original as reference, valuable to have both focused short list
mgylling: ready to move on?
mgylling: Topic: discuss a11y task force from perspective of focus areas
<pbelfanti> Apoloigies, I need to drop now
mgylling: we defined small sets of goals,
which a11y group did
... we want to focus on use cases, and discussion around those
... the approach is to consider the question of what exactly in a11y use
cases is specific to publishing
... reading through the use cases so far
... all of them are important and valid
... but many are general use cases, not specific to publishing
... also, in terms of focus areas, if we want to seize the opportunity
here, what would be highest priority?
... that's the questions we want to ask.
... how can we clean up or restructure the use cases
... and focus on publishing-specific problems
... and what should be our highest priority to affect w3c work
gcapiel: there's further work in fleshing
these out
... this was a first pass before TPAC
... these are general use cases and gaps for OWP, not specific to DPUB
... the only one you could debate
... is timed text (???)
... it's already digital content
... content with media overlays
... timed text is the only specification that [dropout]
mgylling: we lost gerardo
... we can't hear you
gcapiel: I'm back.
... that's the one area where there isn't any great way to deal with
that syncronized audio and text, and its very specific to digital
publishing
mgylling: so that would indicate it would be nice to have a group of use cases that focus on hybrid, multiple-modality books
gcapiel: yes
mgylling: we could approach DAISY to
contribute use cases
... unless you have something up your sleeve
gcapiel: Daniel was involved in timed text
and knows about this
... DAISY knows a lot more about this
mgylling: action on document-wide text
synchronization
... SMIL might not be best solution
... those are design issues
... that's one nice area where we can provide use cases
... what other kinds of things, even if not unique
... what are particularly critical to digital publishing
... media overlays are unlikely to be widely used in browsers
... are there other such areas?
SuzanneT: the personalization use cases fall
in that category
... Pre-K through middle schools: what to do with captions
... specialized subject areas like chemistry, poetry, grammar
... more critical for textbooks
mgylling: these are most critical?
SuzanneT: we must solve these issues as an educational publisher
mgylling: in educational environ, you have timing of tests
SuzanneT: I can flesh those out
mgylling: would be good to see a complete
set, I do see some that are not yet linked
... can you give overview of allowing versions?
SuzanneT: Gerardo put that in
gcapiel: I should look at that
... the issue with image descriptions allowing them to be improved over
time
mgylling: then we have general a11y use
cases
... the specialized subject area categories
... want to ask about infographics
... is that an area where DPUB has a more significant issue
SuzanneT: probably very important to
publishers
... also can be interactive infographics, which makes it more complex
mgylling: Gerardo, you've worked with SVG
folks on use cases
... should we hone in on infographics in education problem?
... presumably the solution is the same for OWP and publishing
... this is a big pain point for educational publishers
... this is a black hole where people don't know where to go
SuzanneT: say you publish an infographic for
chemists
... can give data tables as backup, which is OK for professional chemist
... but that won't work for 4th grader, where that data would not be
helpful
tzviya: Image descriptions have been harder
for business books, like graphics designed to make stock trading fun.
Hard to do an image
... description that keeps the tone
gcapiel: that graphic may be best conveyed
using a combo of text and embossed material
... we've been looking at how to enhance ARIA roles in SVG to be able to
provide that type of experience
mgylling: we should publish a note on a11y
and personalization in publishing
... this is the kind of stuff we need in the use cases
... without going too far in solution space
... SuzanneT, you've offered to flesh out the first three
... Gerardo, you will work on versions
... DAISY will help with audio sync
SuzanneT: there's one on highlighting text,
adding notes and items
... we've put that into the annotations use cases
<Luc> §q
SuzanneT: this category is accesibility of ebook features
<Luc> -q
mgylling: can OWP help solve that?
SuzanneT: with annotations, we need more
data to make annotations fully a11y
... don't have other examples right now
mgylling: OK
... Gerardo, can you look into infographics restructuring?
gcapiel: sure
mgylling: it would be good if we could get
the wiki main page to resemble the eventual structure of the note
... right now doesn't give me a quick overview
gcapiel: we have to take out the general use cases, not specific to DPUB
mgylling: good question
gcapiel: like math, that's a problem not specific to dpub
myglling: mentioned all the time as pain point
tzviya: lots aren't specific to publishing, but they are so common it's worth mentioning
Ivan: the math is a wrong example, in that
publishing needs math way more than anyone else
... so we should keep math
... if it's on the borderline
... Suzanne, are you on WAI working group?
... ask them where these use cases should go
... at end of the day, this doc would be very valuable for those groups
... so we should sync with those groups
SuzanneT: we can move general use cases into
a category
... we can hand off some things
mgylling: there is a gap
... whoever added them is right. Added descriptions are one-dimensional
SuzanneT: You mean user chooses that they want short descriptions?
mgylling: Maybe annotations can play a role,
where tech is more adaptible
... first, let's create a bucket of general stuff
... then categories we populate first for publishing
SuzanneT: the categories are infographics,
educational enviornment, specialized subject areas
... we should keep math separate
... and then maybe ebook feature a11y
mgylling: we can try that
gcapiel: there was also the syncronized
multimedia content
... we haven't talked about semantics stuff much
... for braille, the semantics we have today in OWP may not be
sufficient
mgylling: exactly, even with role attribute
... links with Tzviya and my working group on role attribute
SuzanneT: can that be under ebook feature, or should that be a separate category
mgylling: let's wait.
... we're behind on the wiki re: the role attribute
... will be easier to see later
... we'll punt for now
SuzanneT: infographics, synchronized multimedia, eBook Feature A11y, Ed Environment, Math, Specialized Subject Areas
gcapiel: reviewing user agent a11y guidelines?
Ivan: separate thing.
... Shawn, Shadi etc. would like to get feedback on that.
mgylling: should we ask for participation in
that review?
... some new folks on public list
... we're out of time
... we have prototype restructuring of wiki
... more questions or remarks on a11y?