<trackbot> Date: 07 April 2014

<clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0048.html

<jcraig> scribe: jcraig

UAIG Status

MC: No major news. Forming a Joint TF with SVG Working Group.

JS: Negotiating details with the two groups.

<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask if there is an editors' meeting this coming Wed

MC: Standing agenda item. More to report next week.
... Covers details about editor's meeting: Every other week 30 minutes at 10AM Pactific

Issue 523 (searchbox/searchfield role) https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/523

issue-523?

<trackbot> issue-523 -- searchbox/searchfield role which is a subrole of textbox/textfield -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/523

<MichaelC> close issue-523

<trackbot> Closed issue-523.

Issue 590 Caption Role: Do we need a label role or do we do something

<MichaelC> different? https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/590

related ACTION-1342 to ISSUE-523

<clown> http://www.w3.org/2014/03/31-aria-minutes.html

JC: not an easy topic, pros and cons to all options
... suggest tabling for now. Rich and Steve are not here to discuss

CS: Would like @aria-labelfor and a label role for ease of reading.

<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC

JC: issues with generic label element

if we had a label role on a heading

might override heading role

so basically, couldn´t have an element with its own role also a label

MK: that´s why this is a big concern for me with labels

with landmarks can just wrap them

but that´s more awkward with label

how does AT expose?

JC: don´t confuse AT with AAPI

MK: not that, but multiple roles

JC: one pro to label role is a validation tool could flag an unreferenced label

<jcraig> MC: what if there are a lable role that existed, but was not required, as in, role="heading label"

<scribe> scribe: jcraig

MC: iow, labels don't have to use role="label"
... back to issue at hand. caption elements could be given label role if no better role used

<MichaelC> Straw poll: who would like a label role of some sort?

MC: still have question of whether in absense of labelledby relationship, whether it labels its parent element

<cyns> +1

<joanie> +1

<mattking> +1

± 1 ;-()

<MichaelC> Converse question: who thinks a label role is more trouble than it´s worth?

<joanie> -1

-1

<clown> 0 (sitting on the fence)

<mattking> Depends on restrictions or limitations

<MichaelC> I read modest support in favour of label role

<MichaelC> JD: like explicit roles

<MichaelC> JC: there´s a label role in GTK?

<MichaelC> JD: yes

<MichaelC> JC: is it generic?

<MichaelC> JD: in GTK, static text and labels still have role of label

<MichaelC> MK: is there always a relationship attribute?

<MichaelC> JD: an object with role label has a pointer to what it applies to

<MichaelC> MC: like label for?

<MichaelC> JC: clarifies that ATK handles this better than GTK

JD: label relationship is author explicit, but may be achieved in a variety of ways

<clown> <span arai-labelfor=...?

MC: Might need to require reverse relationship aria-labelfor from label role to element?

<clown> <span role="label" aria-labelfor="…" ?

MK: what about having labelfor but not label role

CS: MS devs wanted to find all labels in document. Would allow them to enforce coding standard on their own projects

<scribe> scribe: MichaelC

MK: potentially you could have role=label, aria-labeledfor, or something referenced by aria-labelledby

JC: big issue here is it adds complexity to the processing rules

in good world, it´s simple

but what if there´s some circularity in authoring of these pieces

so these proposals have benefits but risks

MC: maybe we don´t want all of these options, just pick one

MK: yes

maybe try to look at UAIG from this perspective, and come back with proposal

JC: there are differences in the name calculation alogrithm between spec and UAIG

MC: only non-normative example

JS: a couple examples are different

As it stands, aria-label and aria-labelledby are used to create a "name" property for an accessible. They do not create an accessible of their own

<jcraig> ACTION: pull text computation section into ReSpec include for both Spec and UAIG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Error finding 'pull'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that even if we have role=label is should never be an error if that label isn't actually being used

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to pull text computation section into ReSpec include for both Spec and UAIG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1421 - Pull text computation section into respec include for both spec and uaig [on James Craig - due 2014-04-14].

JN: if we do adopt role=label, shouldn´t be required that authors use it

and not an error to use label without reference

jc: why the latter part?

jn: dynamic updates is one use case

hard to update these references during update

jc: could it be a warning, not an error?

jn: people read warnings as errors

what extra benefit?

jc: there´s a meaningful difference in ATK between static text, and static text that is a label

would want to ensure correct use

jn: already hard for developers to label

introducing more possibilities makes it harder

mk: an error to have label for reference nonexistent?

jc, jn: sometimes in evaluators

<jcraig> MC: also discussing if label role labels its parent

<jcraig> MC: could have undesirable effects

jc: think it´s undesirable, it adds more automatic calculation of the a11y tree

which isn´t impossible, but it´s another thing

for instance, table element mapped to table role only if heuristically determined to be a data table

having spec touch this gets complex, best left to implementations

<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say it's undesirable

issue-590: https://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html#item03

<trackbot> Notes added to issue-590 add caption role.

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to point out the caption example means still putting in a pointer

<jcraig> JD: want to be able to expose unreferenced label text as static text, not label

<jcraig> JD: This would disallow this and force us to expose a potentially incorrect relationship'

<Zakim> mattking, you wanted to ask about mappings

MC: label not labeling its parent sounds desirable from what I hear

but doens´t address the caption thing

you could give caption role=label but still have to have a labeling reference

<jcraig> MK: question on next topic: for caption and figcaption. same in html5?

not much of a gain from that perspective

<jcraig> MK: if you map caption to aria-label, is that problematic?

<jcraig> MK: If we have role="label" in ARIA 1.1, and we don't have @aria-labelfor

<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to Make a clarification about what Michael just said

<jcraig> MK: caption role would be unambiguous on table

<jcraig> scribe: MichaelC

Straw poll: Support for label role labeling its parent?

<jcraig> -1

<jamesn> -1

<mattking> 1-

<joanie> -1

<mattking> -1

<clown> +1 only if the user agent makes the connection to the parent.

<joanie> clown: that is the very thing I'm asking not be done

Strong opposition to this proposal

Straw poll: Support for aria-labelfor type attribute?

<joanie> +1

<mattking> +0.5

<jamesn> +0.25

<clown> +.5

<jcraig> +1 to aria-labelfor (-1 to aria-labelfor)

cyns: explore

Moderate support, need to explore more

Straw poll: Support doing both label role and aria-labelfor?

s/aria-labelled-for/aria-labelfor/G

<mattking> ++1

<clown> +1

<jcraig> +1

<cyns> +1

<jamesn> 0

<joanie> +0.75

(Clarification: +1 = support doing both, -1 = do only one of them)

Reasonably strong support for doing both

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to clarify Matt's comment that indicates we'd want to create role that is specific to html:table

jc: point out that the proposal on the table for a caption role would apply both to table caption and figcaption

mk: so applies to more than one kind of parent?

jc: yes

mk: so complexity in defining where it can be used

jc: also proposed for a summary element in a description

if we do mint a role only for table, the genericness of ARIA isn´t supported

mk: so as it stands, you need an ARIA labeling pointer on the caption

jc: not if using <caption> in HTML

host language defines the label arc

but ARIA is more host language independent

we could say <caption> has implicit ARIA semantic of label

jc: also there is an action to add a computedRole property

that explicates what the ARIA role worked out to be

so for a <table> <caption> that could return a ¨label¨ role because of the implicit ARIA semantics

<jcraig> HTMLFigCaptionElement.computedRole() could return "label" which would go further to providing 1:1 role mapping to host langs

Straw poll: Support for a dedicated caption role that labels its parent table?

<jcraig> -1

<mattking> -1

<joanie> +0

<clown> +.5

<jamesn> -1

<cyns> -1

JS: note ATK both have caption and label roles

JD: maybe can address in mapping, by saying if it´s in a table map one way, otherwise the other

Fairly strong anti-support for that straw poll

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#namecalculation

<clown> UAIG version: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_additional_nd_te

<jcraig> Need to consider role(label) and @aria-labelfor in context of @aria-labelledby and name computation algorithm

<scribe> ACTION: king to develop proposal for label role and aria-labelfor property [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1422 - Develop proposal for label role and aria-labelfor property [on Matthew King - due 2014-04-14].

trackbot, associate action-1422 with issue-590

<trackbot> action-1422 (Develop proposal for label role and aria-labelfor property) associated with issue-590.

<clown> action-638?

<trackbot> action-638 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - compose simple examples for aria-owns and aria-controls based upon prose examples in definitions - 2010-04-30 -- due 2010-05-03 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/638

<clown> action-538?

<trackbot> action-538 -- Michael Cooper to Create candidate HTML Bugzilla entries from PF comments for PF consideration -- due 2009-11-11 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/538

Issue 638 Generic Container Role https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638

jc: proposal for a ¨generic¨ role for div/span, but also for tables determined to be layout

instead of role=¨presentation¨

mk: danger having everything exposed

mc: we´ll pick this topic up as a big one for next week

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

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Scribes: jcraig, MichaelC
ScribeNicks: jcraig, MichaelC
Default Present: Michael_Cooper, Janina, Bryan_Garaventa, James_Nurthen, Joanie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Matt_King, jcraig, Stefan_Schnabel
Present: Michael_Cooper Janina Bryan_Garaventa James_Nurthen Joanie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer Matt_King James_Craig Stefan_Schnabel Cynthia_Shelly
Regrets: Richard_Schwerdtfeger
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0048.html
Found Date: 07 Apr 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: jcraig king pull

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