<trackbot> Date: 01 April 2014

<clown> zakim GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer

<clown> agenda: this

<joanie> ScribeNick: joanie

regrets Cynthia Shelly

(All) Update re: relevant aria-* attributes using selectors for referencing other nodes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0091.html

JS: Wanted to bring everyone up to date who wasn't on the call yesterday
... There was a request from Dominic from Google, not specifically to do with web components
... but how to provide access to shadow DOMs because you cannot use an ID
... because the shadow DOM is sandboxed
... document.querySelector
... Function from DOM4 (not sure, might be DOM3)
... There is a discussion to let aria attributes with an ID ref to work with active-descendant
... Discussion between javascript versus selection syntax run in the browser
... just like CSS selectors

DB: Did Dominic provide examples?

JS: My recollection is no, but he's beginning to put that out on the lists now.
... Today I saw something from an actual project he's working on

<clown> http://www.polymer-project.org/

JS: Here's the URL (above)
... (quotes from the email Dominic sent about polymer and these sorts of examples)
... And Rich brought up an example in which the relation/reference could go both ways

DB: I am happy that Dominic is putting energy toward solving this

BG: I like the selector method better than the javascript method
... because it is more clear

DB: My gut reaction is to agree with you Bryan

JS: And Rich wants to get this for 1.1, I think

DB: When is 1.1's target?

JS: April 2016

DB: April 1st! :)

JS: Realize we started the final ARIA 1.0 push in late October 2013
... That's almost half a year, just to push the document through the whole process
... In order to release it by April 2016, it has to be done by November 2015. That's not too bad.

BG: They were unclear about selectors referencing one or multiple IDs.
... It might be important to distinguish

DB: It would be important for us all to do the same thing

JS: What's the status of shadow DOM in Firefox?

DB: I'm not sure

JS: Your example was great
... (describes example of video player where all the controls are in the shadow DOM)
... So if you actually look at the document, you don't see any buttons to push

BG: You don't see that a checkbox is checked

JS: The difference is that it looks totally different depending on which browser you use

ACTION-1369 (David): Investigate FF implementation of aria-live removal events (see also ISSUE-481).

<clown> action-1369?

<trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-02-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369

DB: I haven't done it yet.
... We also had agreed that it wasn't high priority.

(Group reads over issue above)

DB: Let's go with April 15th.

JS: (changes the ticket)

DB: I might have questions.

<clown> issue-481?

<trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481

JS: Yeah, it's changing the SHOULD to a MUST.
... What possible reason would one have to not let an AT know something is going away?
... All your action is: What does Firefox do now?

DB: I'm 99% sure we made the change to make this work.
... It actually was non-trivial.

<davidb> but code churn may have happened since

JS: I will do something when I get some answers from somebody.

ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss re: AAPI that describes API differences.

JS: I was going to do it as soon as I did the agenda.

<clown> action-1408?

<trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that describes api differences. -- due 2014-04-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408

JS: It's due today. I will change it to a week from today.

DB: I wonder if we should add a role description to ATK and IA2.

ISSUE-583 (Joseph): Update regarding status.

<clown> issue-583?

<trackbot> issue-583 -- Elements that are descendants of an element having aria-activedescendant should not all be focusable -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/583

JS: When we left this off a week ago, I was trying to find the test case.
... We concluded that this is finished and we could just close this issue.
... There's enough info in the UAIG

<clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=784

JS: But I cannot find the test case
... The URL in the issue (above) doesn't seem to exist
... I ended up seeing email to Rich and Michael asking, "Where is this test case?"
... It's going to stay open until I find this test case.
... I think it is going to work though

DB: I'm trying to read the issue

JS: I'll try to summarize the issue
... Rich brings up that in an active-descendant case there should be some restrictions on what should be focusable
... Because there can be all sorts of descendants which may be, for example, descriptive
... But the UAIG says it has to have an ID and a role

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant

JS: (to David) You and I asked Alex about this and he said, "yes."
... If you go down to step 4 (in the above)
... 4a in particular

DB: So this is about the focusable state?

JS: Yes

DB: So it's a heuristic to determine which objects should have state focusable

<clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1222

JS: (to David) Look at the above issue. And read the note.
... I want to make sure the test case actually works (i.e. before I close it). Because Rich cites a test case.

i maybe gone

i hear nothing

<davidb> i don't hear you either

<davidb> but 3:30! :)

ha

calling back in

<clown> likewise, I don't hear joanie, but I do hear davidb.

sorry

<davidb> np

<scribe> ScribeNick: Joanie

ACTION-1409 (Joanie): File a bug against ATK re: adding position, level, and other API.

<clown> action-1409?

<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to File a bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added. -- due 2014-04-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409

JD: I did my action item. There is a bug filed in GNOME's bugzilla

<clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453

JD: I am not anticipating much discussion, but there may be some.
... I want to ping the Gtk+ accessibility developer because I think this will solve some issues he pointed out to me.

JS: So do we close this issue out?

JD: No, I'd like to keep it open in case there is subsequent discussion that requires our input.

<clown> action-1409?

<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-04-15 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409

davidb: it's to get rid of 30 crazy things for implementors :)

<davidb> joanie: you don't like object attributes eh? :)

<davidb> we've crammed too much

<clown> davidb, you are correct, sir.

JD: The whole point of this new API, as was discussed last week, is not only to simplify things for implementors

<davidb> up oh those ":"'s are gonna look like speakers

JD: But also because ATs don't give a _____ where it came from, they just want the answer consistently.

ISSUE-645 (All): Remove 'checkable' object attribute from aria-pressed mappings.

<clown> issue-645?

<trackbot> issue-645 -- remove 'checkable' object attribute requirement from aria-pressed mapping requirements -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/645

JS: I wish more people were here now. :)
... If you look at the issue, there is an aria-pressed attribute
... And the current UAIG says that if it has true or false, the checkable object attribute must be present

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_state-property_table

JS: I can confirm that aria-pressed only applies to toggle buttons
... So I agree with Alex that checkable is redundant
... I am willing to take it out of the UAIG for all but Apple (because it's not there for Apple)

BG: iOS used to say "checked" for toggle buttons

JS: There is no issue with UIA
... So the action is to remove the "checkable" from ATK and IA2

JD: I agree with this decision because it is not only redundant, but it should eliminate extraneous state-changed events that currently have to be filtered out by the AT.

JS: I want David's opinion, but he'll probably agree because Alex has already removed this from Firefox (if I read this correctly)
... Oh, it's not closed yet.
... There's been activity.

<clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114

<clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114#c11

(Discussion about the issue and differences in ATK and IA2 w.r.t toggle buttons)

<clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=989958

JS: Marco is "stealing" the former bug (825114) to fix it in the newer but (989958)

<bgaraventa1979> I like getting rid of checkable within toggle buttons

JS: There's no due date on issues, so let's wait until this is definitely closed.

BG: (agrees with getting rid of it)

JS: Joseph will get rid of it

<clown> ACTION: Joseph to modify IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute checkable:true". [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1418 - Modify ia2 and atk/at-spi mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute checkable:true". [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-04-08].

<clown> action-1418?

<trackbot> action-1418 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify ia2 and atk/at-spi mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute checkable:true". -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1418

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_events_state-change

JS: The problem was that "checkable:true" was present for toggle buttons
... But if the state changed on that toggle button, the state-changed event was for the "pressed" state and not the "checked" state.
... At the moment, aria-pressed is only used on toggle buttons
... But I can imagine it being applicable to other widgets.
... I think the worry was that if you put aria-pressed on something that didn't have a clear role
... You needed a way to know it could be pressed/toggled.
... Visually... Toggle buttons, you cannot necessarily see that they are toggle-able until they are toggled.

BG: JAWS and NVDA have role toggle button.

<clown> scribenick: clown

JD: Actually I think that mixed state on a toggle button is wrong.
... Toggle buttons are either on or off, not mixed.

JS: That's an issue with the spec, not the UAIG.

<bgaraventa1979> I agree, it is confusing

<joanie> ACTION: Joanie to investigate the validity of aria-pressed=mixed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1419 - Investigate the validity of aria-pressed=mixed [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-04-08].

<joanie> JS: There's definitely aria-checked=mixed because I wrote that section.

<joanie> JS: Reads the docs about the meaning of "mixed"

<joanie> JS: I do not see any examples of mixed-state toggle buttons; I do see them for check boxes

<joanie> JS: But definitely the spec provides for the existence of tri-state toggle buttons

<joanie> JS: So that's where you need to go if you decide to complain

<joanie> JD: I will complain

<joanie> JS: Meeting over

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/add a role/add a role description/
Succeeded: s/complian/complain/
Found ScribeNick: joanie
Found ScribeNick: Joanie
Found ScribeNick: clown
Inferring Scribes: joanie, clown
Scribes: joanie, clown
ScribeNicks: joanie, clown
Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanie_Diggs, +1.416.848.aaaa, David_Bolter
Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer Bryan_Garaventa Joanie_Diggs +1.416.848.aaaa David_Bolter
Found Date: 01 Apr 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html
People with action items: joanie joseph

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