W3C

- DRAFT -

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

16 Jan 2014

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch
Regrets
kelly
Chair
jimAllan
Scribe
Jan, allanj

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 16 January 2014

review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/

<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/0001.html

<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/0000.html

<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2014Jan/0001.html

<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2014Jan/0000.html

<Jan> JA: Starting with this one http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/0000.html

UAAG Comments on Text Customization

<Jan> Scribe: Jan

JA: First comment is: 1.4.2: Problem: Users also need to style hyper links at the element. Solution: Add: "...at least heading input fields and links."

<allanj> current wording:

<allanj> 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings and input fields:(Level AA)

Commenter is suggesting...

<Greg> So with Wayne's change it would be:

1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields and links: (Level AA)

<Greg> 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA) * Text size * Text color and background color, choosing from all platform color options * Font family, choosing from all platform fonts

1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA)

JR: OK with this addition

JA: Me too

<jeanne> +1

GL: neutral

KP: me too

<KimPatch> +1

JS: Me too

GP: Links are not block level, could be a bit harder

Resolution: All agree to wording 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA)

<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to Make edit "1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA)" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-933 - Make edit "1.4.2 text size, color and font (by element): the user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (level aa)" [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-01-23].

JA: Next issue...

<allanj> 1.4.3:

JA: 1.4.3: Problem: the lengths for character spacing and word spacing appear to be absolutes. This would be wrong. Solution: Add a note. (so you will have Note 1 (as is) and a new Note 2)

<allanj> Problem: the lengths for character spacing and word spacing appear to be

<allanj> absolutes.

<allanj> This would be wrong.

<allanj> Solution: Add a note. (so you will have Note 1 (as is) and a new Note 2)

<allanj> Note 2: The lengths for character and word spacing are interpreted the same

<allanj> as letter and word spacing CSS 2 and up. The length value is added to the

<allanj> default character and word spacing for the font.

<allanj> gl: this is getting very specific for our document

GL: Seems very tech specific?

JR: Our wording doesn't seem absolute?

GL: Could he be looking at older version?

JA: We tried not to be absolute

<allanj> Action-902?

<trackbot> Action-902 -- Jeanne F Spellman to Follow up with proposal on text customization to clarify the units of measure called for in 1.4.3 proposal. -- due 2013-10-10 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/902

JA: We went back and forth

JR: Our wording is VERY specific "Line spacing of at least 1.0, 1.3, 1.5, and 2.0 times the font height" implies that an implementation that did this would fail: 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, and 2.0 times ...

<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013OctDec/0005.html

JA: This is message where Jeanne took an action and did some investigating...led to first note

GL: The thing you linked to didn't have "1.3" in it...where did that come from?

JR: Possible rewrite: Multiple line spacing options up to at least 2.0 times the font height.

<allanj> links to css document

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#leading

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/wiki/CSS/Properties/line-height

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#spacing-props

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#font-styling

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#font-boldness

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#lining-striking-props

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#alignment-prop

JR: Possible rewrite: Multiple line spacing options from 1.0 up to at least 2.0 times the font height.

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to fix the space after the colon in 1.4.3 and others [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-934 - Fix the space after the colon in 1.4.3 and others [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-01-23].

GL: Do a global search on ":("
... Is 2 options enough

JR: With my language yes

GL: Is a user style sheet enough?
... Even though they are hard for users to use

JA: User style sheets do cover off a lot of our SCs

<Greg> Jan, would your language also comply if it offered just .5x and 5x?

Greg, yes

<Greg> Jan, I don't think that would meet the spirit of the SC.

JA: I think we should be speicific about whether user style sheets are always ok to meet these types of SC

JR: Oh...maybe should be base line spacing, not font height
... Possible rewrite: Multiple line spacing options from 1.0 up to and including at least 2.0 times the base line spacing

All: Figured out it is font height...but measured...bottom of text line to bottom of next text line. 1.0 would actually be touching?

<allanj> line-height is CSS specific what about other technologies

GL: Remember also have to address PDF readers etc.

JR: We are really saying we want generous line spacing on the high end with multiple options up to that

<allanj> this would apply to the other bullets in 1.4.2

<allanj> need for multiple multipliers without being specific

GL: I could imagine a PDF browser that essentially turned PDF into HTML, so user CSS could be used

JA: Then there is the UI vs some style sheet issue

<allanj>  Line spacing of at least 4 steps between 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height

GL: Between can be problematic...

<Greg> Line spacing of 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height, and at least two steps in between.

<Greg> Alternatively, Line spacing of at least 4 steps including and between 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height

Line spacing of 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height, and at least two intermediate steps?

<jeanne> +1

<KimPatch> +1

+1

<allanj> +1

http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/tryit.asp?filename=trycss_line-height

JR: We are talking to UA developers here....

<allanj> and Adobe, and media player developers (for captions)

JS: I could go and ask Bert (staff CSS person)

GL: Right, as long as he knows we're not just talking about CSS

<Greg> The key thing is to get language that is not technology-specific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading

<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to talk to Bert Bos about phrasing the 1.4 text on line spacing across different technologies. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-935 - Talk to bert bos about phrasing the 1.4 text on line spacing across different technologies. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-01-23].

"Default Leading" might be 0 white pace.

JA: We will wait for Jeanne to come back then we will deal with the rest of Wayne's comments

W3 Resource Priorities paper review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0000.html

<jeanne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0010.html

JA: Jeanne and I met on Monday
... We thrashed through minutes from last meeting
... To craft document to send to web performance people
... We pulled out 8 things

JS: I turned into this email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0010.html

JA: I want to do a pass through this...I don't want to mischaracterize people's views

JS: Let's just go through one by one
... I misspelled the email subject...
... 1) In the code example in 1.2 Optimizing download priority....

<allanj> resource priorities document

<allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/

GL: Remove "..."

JS: That's from them

JA: All agree to 1)

JS: 2) In sections 1.2 and 4.2, please make it clear that text alternatives for lazyload resources should be displayed at initial load and not wait for the lazyload
... Long sentence...I will break it into two.

GL: How would this apply to video with captions?
... Should you have to download video if it includes captions

<allanj> scribe: allanj

gl: lazy load is critical in mobile

loading resources is up to the browser. Resource Priorities is SHOULD and could be ignored by implementers

<Jan> "To avoid flashes of unavailable content while a user is panning or scrolling, the User Agent may internally keep track of a region larger than the Document's viewport and begin downloading the resource when the element's bounding box is within that larger region."

<jeanne> 3) In sections 4.2 The lazyload attribute (and 4.3 and 4.4): When the

<jeanne> lazyload attribute is applied to an iframe (for example), will it also

<jeanne> be applied to the child elements in that frame? How would a video in the iframe be handled? Please clarify how @lazyload would be handled in these situations. Similar to comment #2, our concern is that it may not be picked up by screenreaders loading the page. Please keep in mind that screenreaders are also used by sighted people with reading disabilities who are going to want to look at videos

<jeanne> and images.

gl: lazy load should not be an issue for screen readers.
... they have to wait for the page to totally load before making their off-screen model

kp: in speech there are many timing problems

<Greg> Screen readers already have to deal with the fact that resources can be delayed for several seconds, even without lazyload, due to serve load, etc. Thus I doubt lazyload will be a problem (unlike postpone).

kp: are we sure that the UA informs the AT that the page is loaded

js: agree with JR if not an accessibilty problem, then don't raise issue. But don't want things implemented without A11Y being thought about.

jr: pages should function similar to using ARIA active regions alerting user that something on the page changed/loaded

discussion of postpone

"User Agent MUST not start downloading the resource associated with the element until either the bounding box of the element is inside the User Agent's interpretation of the Document's viewport or the element has been styled such that its display property is no longer set to none. "

gl: assume UA is following intent. Author has page with 540 images. Author marks all images below a certain point as postpone

js: postpone could be used for layers in a game
... if you don't use Display: none but use postpone, the images wont load until the images is in the viewport

gl: what does the UA tell the AT when just the non-postponed elements are loaded, or does it say the page is not loaded until the user scrolls to the end of page
... postpone make the page dynamic. the UA must work to keep the AT informed.

jr: think of a choose your own adventure where only what you choose is relevant, all the other 1000s of links are not necessary

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to fix the space after the colon in 1.4.3 and others [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to Make edit "1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA)" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to talk to Bert Bos about phrasing the 1.4 text on line spacing across different technologies. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html#action03]
 
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Found Date: 16 Jan 2014
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