Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 06 January 2014

<Pdanet> tnx Ivan, and, BTW, Hny 2014. I thought it was now, 5:00 PM is difficult for me today but Luc will be there

<ivan> Scribe: Tzviya

<scribe> scribe: tzviya

<ivan> Guest: Julie Morris, BISG

markus: minutes from previous meeting approved

minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Dec/0042.html

ivan: announcements
... madi solomon has decided to step down as co-chair because of changes at Pearson
... Liza Daly is taking over as co-chair

Liza: thank you

welcome Liza

<lizadaly> Hooray!

Ivan: new members joining group, including Apple
... 2 members from Apple David Singer AC rep at W3C
... and Casey Dougherty
... wekcome Julie Morris as almost member of group from BISG

<mgylling> css shapes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Nov/0088.html

Julie: look forward to continued participatiion

Markus: CSS shapes review

<lizadaly> Page selectors > shapes

markus: review is due on Jan 7

azaroth: did a quick read through and sent response to list

<mgylling> robs review: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Dec/0049.html

dave: did not get to over holidays

dave will look at this afternoon

scribe: and send note to list if there is anything specific to comment on. much is over dave's head (!)

Alan: no need to collate Dave + Rob's comments

markus: is there any area in particular to pay attention to?

alan: CSS WG looking to this groups experience with text wrap to see if anything missed

<scribe> ACTION: dave to review CSS shapes and respond to CSS WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Review css shapes and respond to css wg [on Dave Cramer - due 2014-01-13].

markus: next time we get request like this, plan further in advance

dave: different requests will generate different levels of interest. Will vary by subject matter

latinreq

<astearns> dauwhe: it may be more useful to read through the current editor's draft which includes some changes based on last call comments

<astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-shapes/

markus: a few replies to dave's request for critical areas, but up to dave to take it from here

Dave: work has been progressing slowly on the document
... recent changes have been a section on drop caps and raised caps

<ivan> latest version of Dave's document

Dave: that made me think of questions some of us have in ebook production
... drop caps are common in print, and many of try to use them in ebook
... drop caps are tricky in CSS - top needs to align with character top. Raised cap needs to base align with other characters
... In CSS, we encode number of lines and floats
... this seems to be an area where the calculation should be done for us
... would be nice if rendering agent could do calculation of line heights and different fonts for us

Markus: isn't this a perfect example of the kind of thing that we'd like to see?

Dave: yes

Brady: is this as specific as we want drop caps? or more specific units?

Dave: been thinking about that. Shifting from print to digital includes shifting ways of measuring

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to address brady's question

Dave: part of me thinks that shorthand "make this a drop-cap" would be useful, but I'm not sure

<Bill_Kasdorf> yes I'm in LUX on Skype

<lizadaly> We already do have :first-letter in CSS already

Liam: been through desire for drop caps with CSS WG in past. They said just multiply by 3. We need to be clear and precise

markus: what else going on in the document?

dave: footnotes - collecting use cases of footnotes and where displayed

<ivan> footnotes' section

dave: getting a sense of properties that satisfy most users' needs
... this seems like a good way to collect info about what should be happening

tzviya: how much of this needs to be preserved in ebooks? a lot of this is done to save paper

dave: print is in scope for this
... is the popup something we all agree upon?

tzviya: no, in academic works, there needs to be a method for citation, which would be more difficult with pop-ups

Bill: perhaps we should abandon the term "footnote" in favor of "note" so that we don't indicate location on page
... do we have a method for indicating priority? Many of the samples discussed on the list are very rare

Luc: as soon as we decide to display on 2-dimensional area (page), we have concerns about quality
... most of the time in reflowable view, we have to cope with horizontal display. Must address quality of rendering. If we can address notes in semantic way - make them appear when needed
... then we remove the problem of quality

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note pop-ups may also have accessibility difficulties

dave: one of aims of this document is to describe rendering

Liam: the nature of a footnote is that it is not distracting. Pop-ups could present a challenge to that. Could be a problem for accessibility as well. Keep in mind.

Brady: I often miss note references in paper books. There is a risk of this happening with pop-ups as well.

Luc: Semantics should enable a subtle reference

Dave: we've experimented with larger note refs and similar. There are many kinds of notes. Footnote may be used as shorthand for endnotes and many other kinds of notes

markus: in case of whether or not want pop-ups, there is connection to behavioral adaptive content as well as personalization
... it seems that dave wanted to identify low-hanging fruit

Rob: annotations also play into notes space

Markus: should we look at suggestions provided on list?

<ivan> luc's email

Dave: Luc addressed text justification and composition rules
... we all know good layout when we see it, but what is it?

<JeanK> +1

Dave: do we or some other group need to more formally describe how justification should work?

<astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#text-justify-property is all we have today in CSS for justification language specifics

Luc: there are algorithms that define how spacing should work
... for example, see InDesign paragraph composition algorithm that checks spacing and repetition is correct

Ivan: please define composition engine

Luc: computes horizontal spacing between words
... good distribution between spaces and word
... priority is hyphenation and vertical justification

Dave: yes, we all read ebooks in which an H1 is last item on page

Bill: hyphenation is rarely mentioned without justification (H&J)
... the two work in tandem - adjust spacing when add a hyphen

<astearns> hyphenation is also useful in ragged text, for reducing line length variation

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention recent CSS change to improve line-breaking

brady: can't really do hyphenation with justification

Liam: having done some work on line breaking a few years, i have a proposal for CSS WG
... a property to indicate whether a line break is for interactive use or batch use
... when add a line of text, the content might move around

<Luc> +1

Liam: second property allows you to specify the name of line breaking algorithm and parsing parameters
... this will likely be accepted by CSS WG

<JeanK> http://webtypography.net/intro/

Jean: dave asked whether these are in use

<JeanK> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/05/17/typographic-design-patterns-practices-case-study-2013/

Jean: Some have attempted to bring Robert Bringhurst's work to the web (see Jean's links above)
... A lot of composition that is done in XML are doing transformations to older languages, TEX and others
... people on web are paying attention to this. See typeface.js, kerning.js and others
... it would be worth our time to look at some of the resources available - will provide links

<JeanK> http://kerningjs.com/

markus: before we move beyond hyphenation, what is your takeaway, Dave?

<liam> s/TEK/TeX/

<JeanK> http://letteringjs.com/

dave: there is a lot of energy and dissatisfaction. We need to continue to look at this

<Bill_Kasdorf> not TeX?

<JeanK> http://typeface.neocracy.org/

ivan: another area that bothers me as a reader
... that is where hyphenation occurs - the line breaks are in the wrong location. The words break so that they look like other words

<JeanK> http://fittextjs.com/

dave: the quality of the justification is based on the quality of the justification dictionary

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note difference between unattended and attended formatting

liam: traditional print assumes that an editor will check the hyphenation
... when there us dynamic hyphenation in place, must ise good algorithm

<JeanK> http://artequalswork.com/posts/on-widows.php

Luc: the question of the language of the text is a main issue of accessibility

Dave: another issue is image sizing and relationship of caption to image
... some reading systems did not assume the need to see a whole image
... important use case is need to keep image and caption together
... as increase font size, how much should image be allowed to decrease?

markus: Koji mentioned in tokyo that Kobo wanted to exclude captions from font adjustments to help avoid this problem

dave: will be a large number of issues around tables
... ben has done a lot of research around tables. Even simple areas such simple areas as aligning on decimal is important

Markus: we spoke about involving alan and adobe in this document especially in area of advanced adaptive layout

alan: not yet, will discuss with colleagues

markus: what is timeline for first public draft?

dave: still seems early for that. Nothing on tables yet.. Not much on images yet

ivan: a published draft may include place holders
... would the sections that have meat be improved by public review and comments?

dave: I'm fine with public comments as long as people know this is a work in progress
... especially areas like drop caps

<JeanK> +1

markus: 2 of task forces are closer to publicizing something - this group and annotations
... what should we do next week?
... we could continue with this, but I think we should go a full round?

<astearns> (had to drop for another meeting)

<Luc> +1

Jean: I think we should stick with this subject
... there's a whole group of people we haven't spoken to, font people, web typography

dave: I would love to get contributions from the front lines of web typography

<Luc> Me too

ivan: that is why pushing out the doc as soon as possible is a good idea

jean: my concern about pushing this out too early is that it will look like an incomplete document and it will reflect badly

ivan: it will look like a working draft

markus: we need to know who these organizations are. can you (Jean) help?

jean: many of us will be at the ebook hack over weekend and digital book world next week

markus: should we do another task force or continue with this next week?

<JeanK> Start here... : http://tdc.org/

dave: It seems there is pent up demand to continue

markus: is DBW on Monday? Who will be able to attend?

next meeting on Monday 13 Jan