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Weekly XHTML2 Teleconference

Minutes of 28 May 2008

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0111
Seen
Gregory Rosmaita, Roland Merrick, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Tina Holmboe, Toshihiko Yamakami, Unknown yamx
Regrets
Unknown +Alessio
Chair
Roland Merrick
Scribe
Steven Pemberton
Previous Meeting
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/21-xhtml-minutes.html
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

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13:39:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-xhtml-irc

13:39:46 <Tina> ShaneM_: you are only visible once ...

Shane McCarron: you are only visible once ... [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ]

13:39:58 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml

13:39:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

13:40:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public

13:40:33 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 Teleconference
13:40:37 <Steven> Chair: Roland
13:41:16 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0111
13:41:25 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0111

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0111

13:41:35 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

13:41:42 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM

13:41:54 <Steven> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/05/21-xhtml-minutes.html
13:44:08 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland

13:47:09 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

13:47:09 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:47:11 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

13:47:12 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

13:47:24 <yamx> zakim, ??P8 is yamx

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: zakim, ??P8 is yamx

13:47:24 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it

13:49:52 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita

13:50:29 <Roland> Regrets: +Alessio

Scribe problem: the name '+Alessio' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

13:51:05 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes

13:51:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

13:51:33 <Roland> rrsagent, make log public

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make log public

13:52:53 <ShaneM_> here's the link about attributes in namespaces: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#defaulting

Shane McCarron: here's the link about attributes in namespaces: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#defaulting

13:53:40 <Steven> "Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear."

Steven Pemberton: "Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear."

13:56:06 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

13:56:15 <Steven> Topic: Null namespace discussion

1. Null namespace discussion

14:01:54 <oedipus> there are elements of the audience that won't grok it because they don't care and would rather have things buttoned-down and controlled

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Gregory Rosmaita: there are elements of the audience that won't grok it because they don't care and would rather have things buttoned-down and controlled

14:07:19 <Steven> Yam: What a mess! Hard to follow

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Toshihiko Yamakami: What a mess! Hard to follow

14:07:41 <Steven> Steven: Yes, there is a division between those who want it easy to implement and thos ewho want it easy to author

Steven Pemberton: Yes, there is a division between those who want it easy to implement and thos ewho want it easy to author

14:08:24 <Steven> ... and there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about the namespace spec

... and there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about the namespace spec

14:11:21 <ShaneM_> q

Shane McCarron: q

14:17:40 <Steven> Shane: We never say that our attributes are in the null namespace and the XHTML namespace

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Shane McCarron: We never say that our attributes are in the null namespace and the XHTML namespace

14:18:00 <Steven> Steven: We do! (Though not with the null namespace bit, which is part of the misunderstanding I was referring to)

Steven Pemberton: We do! (Though not with the null namespace bit, which is part of the misunderstanding I was referring to)

14:18:25 <Steven> ... in M12N we say that all common attributes can be used as global attributes, but not on our elemenets

... in M12N we say that all common attributes can be used as global attributes, but not on our elemenets

14:19:00 <Steven> Shane: Indeed, though we don't forbid them being imported chameleon-like into their namespace

Shane McCarron: Indeed, though we don't forbid them being imported chameleon-like into their namespace

14:19:09 <Steven> Steven: We don't indeed

Steven Pemberton: We don't indeed

14:19:48 <ShaneM_> XHTML2 working draft: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-xforms.html#s_xformsmodule

Shane McCarron: XHTML2 working draft: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-xforms.html#s_xformsmodule

14:21:36 <Steven> Shane: Is XForms in the same namespace as the other XHTML2 elements?

Shane McCarron: Is XForms in the same namespace as the other XHTML2 elements?

14:21:39 <Steven> Steven: That is the aim

Steven Pemberton: That is the aim

14:21:51 <Steven> ... but I am sure we will get pushback at last call

... but I am sure we will get pushback at last call

14:22:02 <Steven> ... it is a long-running discussion

... it is a long-running discussion

14:22:24 <ShaneM_> Current xml-events language in xhtml2 says: Note that these attributes are not in the XHTML namespace but in the XML Events namespace. The XHTML namespace is the default namespace for XHTML documents, so XHTML elements and attributes may be expressed without namespace prefixes (although they are permitted on elements). XML Events attributes MUST use a prefix, since they are not in the default namespace of the document.

Shane McCarron: Current xml-events language in xhtml2 says: Note that these attributes are not in the XHTML namespace but in the XML Events namespace. The XHTML namespace is the default namespace for XHTML documents, so XHTML elements and attributes may be expressed without namespace prefixes (although they are permitted on elements). XML Events attributes MUST use a prefix, since they are not in the default namespace of the document.

14:22:37 <Steven> Roland: We shouldn't require people to have to do all the namespace manipulation in the DOM, it is too hard

Roland Merrick: We shouldn't require people to have to do all the namespace manipulation in the DOM, it is too hard

14:23:43 <Steven> Roland: XML Events2 is a chance to move the markup into the XHTML namespace

Roland Merrick: XML Events2 is a chance to move the markup into the XHTML namespace

14:24:04 <Steven> ... especially since it introduces handlers

... especially since it introduces handlers

14:29:05 <ShaneM_> I have implemented "getElementsByAttr" and "getElementsByAttrNS" in a library, fwiw

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Shane McCarron: I have implemented "getElementsByAttr" and "getElementsByAttrNS" in a library, fwiw

14:29:52 <Steven> Roland: This is a big subject, and we should spend time at the FtF [ear-to-ear?] discussing it at length

Roland Merrick: This is a big subject, and we should spend time at the FtF [ear-to-ear?] discussing it at length

14:30:01 <ShaneM_> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

14:30:25 <Steven> Topic: June FtF

2. June FtF

14:30:41 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-Minneapolis-FtF

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-Minneapolis-FtF

14:30:58 <Steven> Roland: I have updated the wiki page with times. Anyone looked?

Roland Merrick: I have updated the wiki page with times. Anyone looked?

14:31:01 <Steven> Steven: OK with me

Steven Pemberton: OK with me

14:31:05 <Steven> Shane: I'm OK

Shane McCarron: I'm OK

14:31:17 <Steven> Gregory: Me too

Gregory Rosmaita: Me too

14:31:39 <Steven> Roland: If it is a problem for you Yam we will try to arrange agenda topics to suit your availability

Roland Merrick: If it is a problem for you Yam we will try to arrange agenda topics to suit your availability

14:31:56 <Steven> ... 8:00-16:00 UTC

... 8:00-16:00 UTC

14:32:02 <Steven> Yam: Quite reasonable

Toshihiko Yamakami: Quite reasonable

14:32:09 <Steven> ROland: 4 90 minutes sessions

Roland Merrick: 4 90 minutes sessions

14:32:15 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/
14:32:18 <Steven> Yam: OK

Toshihiko Yamakami: OK

14:32:48 <Steven> Roland: We need to spend time on the finished last calls

Roland Merrick: We need to spend time on the finished last calls

14:32:59 <Steven> ... features and namespaces

... features and namespaces

14:33:10 <Steven> ... Please send requests for agenda items

... Please send requests for agenda items

14:33:30 <Steven> Topic: CURIE syntax

3. CURIE syntax

14:33:42 <Steven> Roland:Last call will be finished by the meeting

Roland Merrick: Last call will be finished by the meeting

14:33:51 <Steven> Topic: Access

4. Access

14:34:00 <Steven> Roland: Now in last call

Roland Merrick: Now in last call

14:34:08 <Steven> ... Gregory, you still have an action item on that

... Gregory, you still have an action item on that

14:34:20 <Steven> Gregory: I'll review what it was

Gregory Rosmaita: I'll review what it was

14:35:54 <Steven> Yam: Is it in last call?

Toshihiko Yamakami: Is it in last call?

14:36:10 <Steven> Steven: Yes, apparently it was wrong to send the announcement a day early

Steven Pemberton: Yes, apparently it was wrong to send the announcement a day early

14:36:20 <Steven> Roland: Ian Jacobs sent the message on Monday

Roland Merrick: Ian Jacobs sent the message on Monday

14:36:31 <Steven> Shane: And it is on the W3C hopepage too

Shane McCarron: And it is on the W3C homepage too

14:36:38 <Steven> s/hope/home/
14:36:47 <Steven> Topic: M12N transition

5. M12N transition

14:36:53 <Steven> Roland: THat is this Friday

Roland Merrick: That is this Friday

14:36:59 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:41:15 <Steven> Steven: If we were to use the same exit criteria as V1, would we be OK with that?

Steven Pemberton: If we were to use the same exit criteria as V1, would we be OK with that?

14:41:26 <Steven> Roland: Well, I think it should be that way!

Roland Merrick: Well, I think it should be that way!

14:42:32 <Steven> Shane: I have several languages already, XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, XHTML 1.1+RDFa

Shane McCarron: I have several languages already, XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, XHTML 1.1+RDFa

14:42:41 <Steven> Steven: What about the legacy module?

Steven Pemberton: What about the legacy module?

14:42:56 <Steven> SHane: Mark uses it

Shane McCarron: Mark uses it

14:43:09 <Steven> Steven: Yay! Sidewinder is open source, so that is a public use

Steven Pemberton: Yay! Sidewinder is open source, so that is a public use

14:43:15 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/
14:43:28 <Steven> Topic: AOB

6. AOB

14:43:50 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to produce a draft implementation report for M12N

ACTION: Shane to produce a draft implementation report for M12N

14:44:33 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM

14:44:35 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita

14:44:35 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven

14:44:36 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland

14:44:36 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

14:44:37 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Roland, Steven, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were ShaneM, Roland, Steven, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita

14:44:42 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to produce summary of M12N history in advance of transition call

ACTION: Steven to produce summary of M12N history in advance of transition call

14:45:01 <Steven> [ADJOURN]

[ADJOURN]

14:45:08 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes

14:45:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven



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