Meeting Record

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XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 1

Minutes of 18 February 2008

Present

Richard Schwerdtfeger, Roland Merrick, Steven Pemberton, Toshihiko Yamakami

Regrets

Tina Holmboe

Chair

Steven Pemberton, Roland Merrick

Scribe

Steven Pemberton

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary link
The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary and one of the available representations SHOULD be RDF/XML. link

Topics

RDFa last call
CURIE last call
Role
XHTML Basic 1.1
CSS Namespace
XHTML2
XFrames
Tomorrow's agenda

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08:06:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc ←

08:07:12 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 1

08:07:25 <Steven> Chair: Steven, Roland

08:34:38 <Steven> Topic: RDFa last call

(No events recorded for 28 minutes)

1. RDFa last call

08:34:44 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

08:35:05 <Steven> Rich: I see that ODF 1.2 will be using RDFa

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I see that ODF 1.2 will be using RDFa ←

08:35:34 <Steven> Steven: I heard that they are changing some of the attribute names

Steven Pemberton: I heard that they are changing some of the attribute names ←

08:35:46 <Steven> ... but that is not yet final

... but that is not yet final ←

08:35:59 <Steven> Roland: Well then they aren't using RDFa then

Roland Merrick: Well then they aren't using RDFa then ←

08:36:09 <Steven> Steven: Well, they are, but with a differen syntax :-)

Steven Pemberton: Well, they are, but with a differen syntax :-) ←

08:36:29 <Steven> ... I think they are inporting the attributes into their own namespace

... I think they are inporting the attributes into their own namespace ←

08:36:43 <Steven> http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200710/msg00003.html

http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200710/msg00003.html ←

08:36:58 <Steven> Roland: Does the current spec allow this?

Roland Merrick: Does the current spec allow this? ←

08:37:20 <Steven> Steven: Yes, I think all our modules are chameleon; it is the driver that adds the namespace

Steven Pemberton: Yes, I think all our modules are chameleon; it is the driver that adds the namespace ←

08:37:37 <Steven> Roland: I think this is good. It may help clean up some of the namespace mess

Roland Merrick: I think this is good. It may help clean up some of the namespace mess ←

08:38:45 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: To join the meeting, please ask for the skype ID for the call

Steven has changed the topic to: To join the meeting, please ask for the skype ID for the call ←

08:41:01 <Steven> Steven: I announced the RDFa last call at HCG last Friday. THe dates were announced as 6 weeks ending April 4, but that means starting 22 Feb, which I am not sure we will hit.

Steven Pemberton: I announced the RDFa last call at HCG last Friday. The dates were announced as 6 weeks ending April 4, but that means starting 22 Feb, which I am not sure we will hit. ←

08:41:40 <Steven> s/TH/Th/

08:42:19 <Steven> ... I see a new, potentially final pre-last call draft was published this weekend

... I see a new, potentially final pre-last call draft was published this weekend ←

08:43:53 <Steven> ... so there is still a reasonable chance to get it out this Friday

... so there is still a reasonable chance to get it out this Friday ←

08:55:00 <Steven> Steven: The problem with the spec is that it is for implementors and not authors

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: The problem with the spec is that it is for implementors and not authors ←

08:55:28 <Steven> Roland: What we really need is an RDFa cookbook, that gives lots of examples that you can just copy

Roland Merrick: What we really need is an RDFa cookbook, that gives lots of examples that you can just copy ←

08:55:33 <Steven> ... exemplars

... exemplars ←

08:56:33 <Steven> Steven: Which examples do you think are needed?

Steven Pemberton: Which examples do you think are needed? ←

08:57:06 <Steven> Roland: Geo coding, people, ...

Roland Merrick: Geo coding, people, ... ←

08:57:09 <Steven> STeven: Events

Steven Pemberton: Events ←

08:57:16 <Steven> s/ST/St/

08:57:37 <Steven> Roland: W3C should be doing this much more centrally organised

Roland Merrick: W3C should be doing this much more centrally organised ←

08:58:17 <Steven> ... and host the namespaces and so on

... and host the namespaces and so on ←

09:02:18 <Steven> Topic: CURIE last call

2. CURIE last call

09:02:29 <Steven> Steven: We got the OK on the dates at the HCG meeting

Steven Pemberton: We got the OK on the dates at the HCG meeting ←

09:03:39 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes

http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes ←

09:03:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes#item05

http://www.w3.org/2008/02/15-hcg-minutes#item05 ←

09:06:21 <Steven> Steven: The current draft that is up is 22 Jan, so the last changes have not been made

Steven Pemberton: The current draft that is up is 22 Jan, so the last changes have not been made ←

09:06:37 <Steven> ... I know Shane has been having trouble uploading to the W3 site

... I know Shane has been having trouble uploading to the W3 site ←

09:07:02 <Steven> Roland: So we are OK to go?

Roland Merrick: So we are OK to go? ←

09:07:17 <Steven> Steven: HCG has OKd it, we can publish asap

Steven Pemberton: HCG has OKd it, we can publish asap ←

09:07:37 <Steven> Roland: So we just need Shane to upload the draft

Roland Merrick: So we just need Shane to upload the draft ←

09:07:46 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft

ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft ←

09:07:55 <Steven> ACTION Steven: Draft last call announcement

ACTION Steven: Draft last call announcement ←

09:08:39 <Steven> Topic: Role

3. Role

09:09:16 <Steven> Roland: We are ready to go to second last call

Roland Merrick: We are ready to go to second last call ←

09:09:40 <Steven> ... but I wonder if we should let it wait a bit so that it runs behind CURIEs, which depend on it

... but I wonder if we should let it wait a bit so that it runs behind CURIEs, which depend on it ←

09:10:37 <Steven> Rich: In ARIA some of the standard roles in the Roles spec like note and definition, they are a subclass of 'region'

Richard Schwerdtfeger: In ARIA some of the standard roles in the Roles spec like note and definition, they are a subclass of 'region' ←

09:10:43 <Steven> ... and I would not do that

... and I would not do that ←

09:11:08 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/ ←

09:11:19 <Steven> Rich: I could tweak the examples in the appendix to fix that

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I could tweak the examples in the appendix to fix that ←

09:12:01 <Steven> Rich: Why are things in orange?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Why are things in orange? ←

09:12:18 <Steven> Steven: [laughs] That is for all SHOULDs and MUSTs

Steven Pemberton: [laughs] That is for all SHOULDs and MUSTs ←

09:12:23 <Steven> ... CSS style

... CSS style ←

09:12:32 <Steven> Roland: But we don't say that, we should

Roland Merrick: But we don't say that, we should ←

09:12:52 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange

ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange ←

09:13:07 <Steven> Rich: Oh wait, I already did that change

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Oh wait, I already did that change ←

09:13:28 <Steven> Roland: We need a role cookbook as well

Roland Merrick: We need a role cookbook as well ←

09:14:16 <Steven> Rich: My change is in section C -

Richard Schwerdtfeger: My change is in section C - ←

09:14:17 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/ ←

09:14:52 <Steven> Rich: I have to say that the taxonomy was one of the best pieces of work we (WAI) has done

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I have to say that the taxonomy was one of the best pieces of work we (WAI) has done ←

09:15:10 <Steven> ... since it allowed us to check correctness really easily

... since it allowed us to check correctness really easily ←

09:15:38 <Steven> ... OWL is a fantastic, and simple, tool for that

... OWL is a fantastic, and simple, tool for that ←

09:16:06 <Steven> Roland: Such taxonomies should be dereferencable via a URI, and not just an appendix of a doc

Roland Merrick: Such taxonomies should be dereferencable via a URI, and not just an appendix of a doc ←

09:17:18 <Steven> ... so appendix C should be a separate document that people can download

... so appendix C should be a separate document that people can download ←

09:17:26 <Steven> Steven: Does OWL have a Media Type

Steven Pemberton: Does OWL have a Media Type? ←

09:17:32 <Steven> s/Type/Type?/

09:17:36 <Steven> Rich: No

Richard Schwerdtfeger: No ←

09:18:06 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#MIMEType

http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#MIMEType ←

09:18:55 <Steven> Steven: Why is that? Oh I see, it is just RDF/XML

Steven Pemberton: Why is that? Oh I see, it is just RDF/XML ←

09:20:26 <Steven> Steven: Maybe an interesting experiemtn to represent OWL in RDFa

Steven Pemberton: Maybe an interesting experiment to represent OWL in RDFa ←

09:20:48 <Steven> s/experiemtn/experiment/

09:21:43 <Steven> Steven: We need to decide on dates for second last call

Steven Pemberton: We need to decide on dates for second last call ←

09:22:17 <Steven> Roland: So we publish CURIEs tomorrow, let's say, done 18 March

Roland Merrick: So we publish CURIEs tomorrow, let's say, done 18 March ←

09:22:41 <Steven> ... and look at a role last call starting 18 March

... and look at a role last call starting 18 March ←

09:22:54 <Steven> ... unless we have a lot of CURIE push back

... unless we have a lot of CURIE push back ←

09:25:19 <Steven> ... we should try to avoid a third last call!

... we should try to avoid a third last call! ←

09:25:40 <Steven> Present: Rich, Roland, Steven, Yam

09:25:45 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:25:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

09:26:01 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

rrsagent, make log public ←

09:26:08 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:26:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

09:38:41 <Roland_> one last role issue from Shane : http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

Roland Merrick: one last role issue from Shane : http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001 ←

09:46:20 <Steven> Steven: So he wants the roles to be machine discoverable

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: So he wants the roles to be machine discoverable ←

09:46:25 <Steven> ... which is a good idea

... which is a good idea ←

09:46:40 <Steven> ... it seems like a good opportunity to use RDFa:

... it seems like a good opportunity to use RDFa: ←

09:46:59 <Steven> ... when you go to the URL you get an XHTML document that is readable for the human, explaining the values

... when you go to the URL you get an XHTML document that is readable for the human, explaining the values ←

09:47:09 <Steven> ... but is also machine readable for UAs

... but is also machine readable for UAs ←

09:49:10 <Steven> Steven: You do want UAs to be extensible for new role values

Steven Pemberton: You do want UAs to be extensible for new role values ←

09:49:21 <Steven> ... otherwise new role adoption would be very slow

... otherwise new role adoption would be very slow ←

09:49:46 <Steven> Rich: But it may be in the middleware where the presentation of the role is made

Richard Schwerdtfeger: But it may be in the middleware where the presentation of the role is made ←

09:49:54 <Steven> ... it may not make it down to the UA

... it may not make it down to the UA ←

09:50:59 <Steven> Steven: But from the user's perspective middleware is just part of the UA

Steven Pemberton: But from the user's perspective middleware is just part of the UA ←

09:51:37 <Steven> Rich: We don't have a method at present of specifying priorities of roles

Richard Schwerdtfeger: We don't have a method at present of specifying priorities of roles ←

09:52:06 <Steven> ... there is no semantic information that says that secondary is of lower priority to primary

... there is no semantic information that says that secondary is of lower priority to primary ←

09:52:20 <Steven> ... at least with RDF you can always update it later

... at least with RDF you can always update it later ←

09:52:36 <Steven> Steven: I don;t think we disagree with his points here

Steven Pemberton: I don;t think we disagree with his points here ←

09:52:44 <Steven> Rich: No not at all

Richard Schwerdtfeger: No not at all ←

09:52:56 <Steven> ... though I doubt you can specify the end rendering

... though I doubt you can specify the end rendering ←

09:55:25 <Steven> Rich: So how should we respond to him? Firstly create a URI to the roles

Richard Schwerdtfeger: So how should we respond to him? Firstly create a URI to the roles ←

09:55:30 <Steven> ... the OWL document

... the OWL document ←

09:55:42 <Steven> ... Steven could do an RDFa version

... Steven could do an RDFa version ←

09:57:52 <Steven> Steven: This is a problem with OWL not having a media type: you can't use content negotiation to specify that you only want the OWL version

Steven Pemberton: This is a problem with OWL not having a media type: you can't use content negotiation to specify that you only want the OWL version ←

10:03:47 <Steven> Roland: So should we make it a SHOULD or a MUST that people make dereferencable definitoins of their role values?

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Roland Merrick: So should we make it a SHOULD or a MUST that people make dereferencable definitions of their role values? ←

10:03:59 <Steven> s/toins/tions/

10:06:23 <Steven> Roland: Is it fair not to specify which representation of RDF is required?

Roland Merrick: Is it fair not to specify which representation of RDF is required? ←

10:06:41 <Steven> ... otherwise the UA must be able to handle all sorts of serializations

... otherwise the UA must be able to handle all sorts of serializations ←

10:06:52 <Steven> ... RDF/XML, OWL, RDFa

... RDF/XML, OWL, RDFa ←

10:06:58 <Steven> Steven: Triples, Turltle...

Steven Pemberton: Triples, Turltle... ←

10:09:31 <Steven> Steven: But it's not nice to exclude future possible representations of RDF either

Steven Pemberton: But it's not nice to exclude future possible representations of RDF either ←

10:10:09 <Steven> Roland: It is a problem for interoperability though

Roland Merrick: It is a problem for interoperability though ←

10:14:23 <Steven> Steven: We need to specify the exact algorithm to get to the machine readable definitions

Steven Pemberton: We need to specify the exact algorithm to get to the machine readable definitions ←

10:14:43 <Steven> Roland: Where do we specify the 'vocab' bit of our role namespace

Roland Merrick: Where do we specify the 'vocab' bit of our role namespace ←

10:14:49 <Steven> Steven: Section 3

Steven Pemberton: Section 3 ←

10:15:01 <Steven> ... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#

... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab# ←

10:15:12 <Steven> ... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/#s_role_module_attributes

... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/#s_role_module_attributes ←

10:18:03 <Steven> [Discussion of problems with IE's CSS and namespaced values]

[Discussion of problems with IE's CSS and namespaced values] ←

10:23:11 <Steven> RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

RESOLVED: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary ←

10:24:08 <Steven> Roland: and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML

Roland Merrick: and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML ←

10:24:44 <Steven> RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML.

RESOLVED: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary and one of the available representations SHOULD be RDF/XML. ←

10:25:03 <Steven> s/available RDF/available/

10:28:04 <Steven> Roland: Going back to the issue we are discussing

Roland Merrick: Going back to the issue we are discussing ←

10:28:10 <Steven> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001 ←

10:28:40 <Steven> STeven: We can't do the primjary/secondary importance at present

Steven Pemberton: We can't do the primary/secondary importance at present ←

10:28:56 <Steven> s/jary/ary/

10:29:12 <Steven> Roland: That is being considered by UWA at present

Roland Merrick: That is being considered by UWA at present ←

10:29:25 <Steven> Steven: So we could say that that is work in progress at the moment

Steven Pemberton: So we could say that that is work in progress at the moment ←

10:29:38 <Steven> Rich: It is beyond the scope of this release of role

Richard Schwerdtfeger: It is beyond the scope of this release of role ←

10:30:07 <Steven> Steven: So who's going to reply?

Steven Pemberton: So who's going to reply? ←

10:31:11 <Steven> ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001

ACTION: Roland to reply to ISSUE-8001 ←

10:37:30 <Steven> Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

4. XHTML Basic 1.1

10:45:33 <Steven> Steven: Here is an icomplete implementation report, that needs some details filling in; maybe we can do it on the fly:

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: Here is an icomplete implementation report, that needs some details filling in; maybe we can do it on the fly: ←

10:45:34 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html ←

10:49:11 <Steven> Yam: I believe that Openwave has an implementation, but I am not sure

Toshihiko Yamakami: I believe that Openwave has an implementation, but I am not sure ←

10:49:27 <Steven> ... Netfront definitely has

... Netfront definitely has ←

10:51:19 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-xhtml-basic-20070713/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-xhtml-basic-20070713/ ←

10:59:49 <Steven> Steven: So what do we do? Wait for a second implementation, or argue that it is a hint, and therefore any implementation conforms

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: So what do we do? Wait for a second implementation, or argue that it is a hint, and therefore any implementation conforms ←

11:00:54 <Steven> Roland: So when will OMA XHTML MP 1.2 be ratified?

Roland Merrick: So when will OMA XHTML MP 1.2 be ratified? ←

11:01:02 <Steven> Yam: Soon, it is in CR now

Toshihiko Yamakami: Soon, it is in CR now ←

11:01:08 <Steven> Steven: With inputmode?

Steven Pemberton: With inputmode? ←

11:01:15 <Steven> Yam: Inputmode is in MP 1.3

Toshihiko Yamakami: Inputmode is in MP 1.3 ←

11:02:13 <Steven> Steven: The third option is to drop inputmode

Steven Pemberton: The third option is to drop inputmode ←

11:02:31 <Tim> hi

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Tim: hi ←

11:04:01 <Steven> Roland: If OMA is happy with only one, if we could get MWI's statement that they are happy with one implementation, then we could move forward that way

Roland Merrick: If OMA is happy with only one, if we could get MWI's statement that they are happy with one implementation, then we could move forward that way ←

11:04:28 <Steven> Steven: So we go with option 1.

Steven Pemberton: So we go with option 1. ←

11:04:37 <Steven> Yam: So you have to contact Mike Smith

Toshihiko Yamakami: So you have to contact Mike Smith ←

11:08:49 <Steven> Steven: I will try and contact Mike Smith, but he is in Tokyo, so it is a bit late now

Steven Pemberton: I will try and contact Mike Smith, but he is in Tokyo, so it is a bit late now ←

11:09:03 <Steven> (sent mail)

(sent mail) ←

11:21:13 <Steven> Topic: CSS Namespace

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

5. CSS Namespace

11:21:29 <Steven> Steven: I see CSS has published a last call on namespaces in CSS

Steven Pemberton: I see CSS has published a last call on namespaces in CSS ←

11:21:45 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item23

http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item23 ←

11:22:05 <Steven> Steven: We should review it

Steven Pemberton: We should review it ←

11:28:20 <Steven> [ADJOURN for lunch]

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

[ADJOURN for lunch] ←

11:28:41 <Steven> ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module

ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module ←

12:51:31 <Steven> About to reconvene

(No events recorded for 82 minutes)

About to reconvene ←

12:54:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

12:54:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

13:02:05 <Steven> Present+Alessio

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Present+Alessio ←

13:10:56 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes ←

13:11:05 <ShaneM>  /whois r*

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: /whois r* ←

13:11:20 <ShaneM> hi - alarm malfunction

Unknown ShaneM: hi - alarm malfunction ←

13:11:37 <Steven> I didn't know you could wildcard whois Shane

I didn't know you could wildcard whois Shane ←

13:11:40 <Steven> Thanks

Thanks ←

13:12:04 <Steven> Hi Shane

Hi Shane ←

13:12:10 <Steven> We've already done quite a lot

We've already done quite a lot ←

13:12:13 <Steven> see the minutes

see the minutes ←

13:12:17 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF#Minutes ←

13:12:24 <Steven> Present+Shane

Present+Shane ←

13:12:31 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:12:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

13:14:01 <Steven> What is the prob with the W3C site Shane?

What is the prob with the W3C site Shane? ←

13:14:19 <Steven> Regrets: Tina

13:14:33 <ShaneM> the "2008" folder fell out of my jigedit tree again

Unknown ShaneM: the "2008" folder fell out of my jigedit tree again ←

13:14:41 <Steven> Strange

Strange ←

13:14:46 <ShaneM> annoying

Unknown ShaneM: annoying ←

13:14:50 <Steven> but you did fix it the first time?

but you did fix it the first time? ←

13:15:04 <ShaneM> they fixed it on weds.  broke on fri or sat.

Unknown ShaneM: they fixed it on weds. broke on fri or sat. ←

13:15:11 <Steven> :-)

:-) ←

13:15:20 <Steven> Do you know what caused it?

Do you know what caused it? ←

13:15:44 <ShaneM> not a clue.  just went away.  dont let me distract from the meeting tho plz.  I will work this in parallel

Unknown ShaneM: not a clue. just went away. dont let me distract from the meeting tho plz. I will work this in parallel ←

13:15:51 <Steven> sure

sure ←

13:15:57 <Steven> we're just restarting after lunch

we're just restarting after lunch ←

13:16:09 <Steven> We are in a beautiful old Venetian Palace

We are in a beautiful old Venetian Palace ←

13:16:15 <Steven> with a view on the canal

with a view on the canal ←

13:16:28 <Steven> It was a little chilly this morning, but we have the sun on our backs now

It was a little chilly this morning, but we have the sun on our backs now ←

13:16:56 <Steven> Want to skype shane?

Want to skype shane? ←

13:17:28 <oedipus> GJR: good afternoon/morning/[your time of day here]!; will be participating in this session in a minute -- going over the IRC log and minutes

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'GJR' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown GJR: good afternoon/morning/[your time of day here]!; will be participating in this session in a minute -- going over the IRC log and minutes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:17:50 <alessio> hi shane, gregory

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Unknown alessio: hi shane, gregory ←

13:18:05 <oedipus> steven, i hope i didn't muck things up by trying to fix the datestamp on the wiki!

Unknown oedipus: steven, i hope i didn't muck things up by trying to fix the datestamp on the wiki! ←

13:18:35 <Steven> Present+Gregory

Present+Gregory ←

13:18:36 <oedipus> aloha, alessio -- it's good to hear you, but i wish i were doing so in person (and with a speech synthesizer)!

Unknown oedipus: aloha, alessio -- it's good to hear you, but i wish i were doing so in person (and with a speech synthesizer)! ←

13:18:41 <Steven> No Gregory, I hadn't noticed

No Gregory, I hadn't noticed ←

13:18:53 <Steven> was that that it said 2007 instead of 2008?

was that that it said 2007 instead of 2008? ←

13:19:28 <oedipus> yeah - the files themselves were datestamped 2007 so i set redirects to the same content with a 2008 datestamp

Unknown oedipus: yeah - the files themselves were datestamped 2007 so i set redirects to the same content with a 2008 datestamp ←

13:19:35 <alessio> I know gregory...

Unknown alessio: I know gregory... ←

13:19:52 <Steven> good work; we wondered who had done that, but were glad

good work; we wondered who had done that, but were glad ←

13:20:18 <Steven> Topic: XHTML2

6. XHTML2

13:20:28 <oedipus> just glad i didn't screw things up -- and VERY glad that the wiki is a mediawiki

Unknown oedipus: just glad i didn't screw things up -- and VERY glad that the wiki is a mediawiki ←

13:21:14 <Steven> Roland: So at the last FtF we decided that since there is now HTML5 we can be more radical and achieve more advantages to meet our aims

Roland Merrick: So at the last FtF we decided that since there is now HTML5 we can be more radical and achieve more advantages to meet our aims ←

13:21:30 <Steven> Rich: UWA are trying to do the same things. Maybe we can pool

Richard Schwerdtfeger: UWA are trying to do the same things. Maybe we can pool ←

13:22:23 <Steven> Roland: I suggest we focus on the markup side of what gets authored

Roland Merrick: I suggest we focus on the markup side of what gets authored ←

13:22:34 <Steven> ... UWA focusses on adaptation

... UWA focusses on adaptation ←

13:22:42 <Steven> ... but we need to make sure they gel

... but we need to make sure they gel ←

13:22:49 <Steven> ... but there is a good separation of work

... but there is a good separation of work ←

13:22:55 <Steven> Yam: I have two views

Toshihiko Yamakami: I have two views ←

13:23:11 <Steven> ... XHTML2 is far more new generation markup

... XHTML2 is far more new generation markup ←

13:23:27 <Steven> ... but lessons from the past: we need to work faster

... but lessons from the past: we need to work faster ←

13:23:46 <Steven> ... and changing path now might make more volatility

... and changing path now might make more volatility ←

13:24:24 <Steven> ... XHTML1 is more conservative than HTML5 in some respects

... XHTML1 is more conservative than HTML5 in some respects ←

13:24:59 <Steven> ... in M12N we don't specify semantics, leaving HTML4 to specify the semantics

... in M12N we don't specify semantics, leaving HTML4 to specify the semantics ←

13:25:47 <Steven> ... we need to cut and paste the semantics somewhere, and decalre HTML4 is the past

... we need to cut and paste the semantics somewhere, and decalre HTML4 is the past ←

13:26:07 <Steven> ... we can use some parts of HTML5, such as <section>

... we can use some parts of HTML5, such as <section> ←

13:26:35 <Steven> ... with existing browsers we can easily represent XHTML2

... with existing browsers we can easily represent XHTML2 ←

13:27:01 <Steven> Steven: Well, the semantics *have* already been moved to the XHTML2 spec

Steven Pemberton: Well, the semantics *have* already been moved to the XHTML2 spec ←

13:28:55 <Steven> ... I've never really understood the objections to XHTML2, since it pretty much all can be done in existing browsers already

... I've never really understood the objections to XHTML2, since it pretty much all can be done in existing browsers already ←

13:29:17 <Steven> ... my conclusion is that namespaces are the root of the complaints

... my conclusion is that namespaces are the root of the complaints ←

13:29:53 <Steven> Yam: I just don't understand why people have problems with namespaces. You really need them, and they are an underpinning of W3C

Toshihiko Yamakami: I just don't understand why people have problems with namespaces. You really need them, and they are an underpinning of W3C ←

13:30:26 <Steven> Steven: I think in the end that HTML5 will discover that they need something like namespaces anyway, even if they call it something else

Steven Pemberton: I think in the end that HTML5 will discover that they need something like namespaces anyway, even if they call it something else ←

13:30:48 <Steven> Roland: We need to find a way to make authoring with namespaces easy

Roland Merrick: We need to find a way to make authoring with namespaces easy ←

13:30:50 <ShaneM> The problem with namespaces is the ability to arbitrarily change prefixes throughout a document stream.  Overengineered.  You just need the ability to establish a prefix binding for scoping.

Unknown ShaneM: The problem with namespaces is the ability to arbitrarily change prefixes throughout a document stream. Overengineered. You just need the ability to establish a prefix binding for scoping. ←

13:32:05 <Steven> Roland: Maybe we could move everything into a single namespace

Roland Merrick: Maybe we could move everything into a single namespace ←

13:32:23 <Steven> Yam: I don't really see the problem

Toshihiko Yamakami: I don't really see the problem ←

13:34:09 <Steven> Roland: Our design should minimise the need for namespaces in authoring

Roland Merrick: Our design should minimise the need for namespaces in authoring ←

13:35:40 <Steven> Yam: We need to make XHTML2 real as soon as possible

Toshihiko Yamakami: We need to make XHTML2 real as soon as possible ←

13:35:53 <Steven> Steven: There is an open source javascript library for XForms

Steven Pemberton: There is an open source javascript library for XForms ←

13:36:14 <Steven> ... we could expand that to do the rest of XHTML2, so it would work in browsers now

... we could expand that to do the rest of XHTML2, so it would work in browsers now ←

13:38:02 <Steven> Roland: So what is it that we are doing new?

Roland Merrick: So what is it that we are doing new? ←

13:38:29 <Steven> Steven: Device independence, accessibility, internationalisation

Steven Pemberton: Device independence, accessibility, internationalisation ←

13:38:36 <Steven> ... authoring

... authoring ←

13:39:54 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to Roland's "move everything into a single namespace"

Unknown GJR: plus 1 to Roland's "move everything into a single namespace" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:40:56 <Steven> Alessio: If you want video or audio, you should use SMIL content for that

Scribe problem: the name 'Alessio' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Alessio: If you want video or audio, you should use SMIL content for that ←

13:44:06 <Steven> Roland: If I want to compose different content from different languages I should be able to.

Roland Merrick: If I want to compose different content from different languages I should be able to. ←

13:44:25 <oedipus> GJR: SMIL Timesheets - a good model offering user-end control a l stylesheets; role for OBJECT also good idea rather than VIDEO, AUDIO, etc.

Unknown GJR: SMIL Timesheets - a good model offering user-end control a l stylesheets; role for OBJECT also good idea rather than VIDEO, AUDIO, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:46:08 <Steven> Alessio: I strongly believe that we should use CML markup to represent the blocks that are combined in a page

Unknown Alessio: I strongly believe that we should use CML markup to represent the blocks that are combined in a page ←

13:47:34 <Steven> Steven: What you want to do for documents ROland is what modularisation does for languages

Steven Pemberton: What you want to do for documents Roland is what modularisation does for languages ←

13:47:35 <Steven> Roland: Yes

Roland Merrick: Yes ←

13:47:48 <Steven> ... you want to compose documents from document blocks

... you want to compose documents from document blocks ←

13:47:56 <Steven> ... 'islands'

... 'islands' ←

13:48:09 <Steven> s/RORo/

s/RORo/ (warning: replacement failed) ←

13:48:15 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/

13:51:31 <Steven> Steven: This is why all elements have a src attribute

Steven Pemberton: This is why all elements have a src attribute ←

13:51:58 <Steven> ... to allow you to import that content, but if the link fails or media type doesn't match, you still have some content

... to allow you to import that content, but if the link fails or media type doesn't match, you still have some content ←

13:52:18 <Steven> Roland: I think the content should be able to be changed on the fly, at runtime

Roland Merrick: I think the content should be able to be changed on the fly, at runtime ←

13:53:05 <Steven> [discussion of widgets, and their definition]

[discussion of widgets, and their definition] ←

13:53:21 <Steven> Yam: What is the difference between widget and application?

Toshihiko Yamakami: What is the difference between widget and application? ←

13:53:33 <Steven> Alessio: none

Unknown Alessio: none ←

13:53:51 <Steven> Yam: From my point of view, it's all applications

Toshihiko Yamakami: From my point of view, it's all applications ←

13:54:07 <Steven> Roland: I think it's just terminology

Roland Merrick: I think it's just terminology ←

13:54:27 <oedipus> GJR: that's why we need the semiotic web, not just the semantic web!

Unknown GJR: that's why we need the semiotic web, not just the semantic web! [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:54:41 <Steven> ... it is independently written, it publishes its events, and defines what it will do in the page context

... it is independently written, it publishes its events, and defines what it will do in the page context ←

13:56:32 <Steven> Roland: One of the current problems with'widgets' is the security issue

Roland Merrick: One of the current problems with 'widgets' is the security issue ←

13:56:42 <Steven> s/with/with /

13:56:56 <Steven> Roland: We should address that

Roland Merrick: We should address that ←

13:57:24 <Steven> ... people like openajax are working on it

... people like openajax are working on it ←

13:57:43 <oedipus> GJR: notes that PF just dealt with a potential scripting trojan horse delivery method by removing aria's secret property, due to possibility of author abuse

Unknown GJR: notes that PF just dealt with a potential scripting trojan horse delivery method by removing aria's secret property, due to possibility of author abuse [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:57:52 <Steven> ... but we need to mark the security boundaries in documents

... but we need to mark the security boundaries in documents ←

13:59:36 <Steven> Alessio: Aggregation of documents is very important, thart HTML5 is missing

Unknown Alessio: Aggregation of documents is very important, thart HTML5 is missing ←

14:00:49 <Steven> Steven: Part of the problem is that they didn't design composability into XML, look at unique IDs

Steven Pemberton: Part of the problem is that they didn't design composability into XML, look at unique IDs ←

14:01:20 <Steven> Roland: WHen XML Schema started I asked for an 'XML Document' datatype, and they said "We can't do that"

Roland Merrick: When XML Schema started I asked for an 'XML Document' datatype, and they said "We can't do that" ←

14:02:09 <oedipus> roland, who said "we can't do that"?

Unknown oedipus: roland, who said "we can't do that"? ←

14:03:09 <Steven> Gregory, XML doesn't allow composition of documents; it was the schema WG who said that

Gregory, XML doesn't allow composition of documents; it was the schema WG who said that ←

14:03:29 <oedipus> thanks for the clarification -- that's what i concluded, but wanted to be sure

Unknown oedipus: thanks for the clarification -- that's what i concluded, but wanted to be sure ←

14:06:28 <Steven> Roland: We need to define event boundaries when including other 'applications' using src on an element

Roland Merrick: We need to define event boundaries when including other 'applications' using src on an element ←

14:06:38 <Steven> Yam: We definitely need some guidelines

Toshihiko Yamakami: We definitely need some guidelines ←

14:07:15 <Steven> Roland: It may depend on particular events, some may be allowed to go over boundaries

Roland Merrick: It may depend on particular events, some may be allowed to go over boundaries ←

14:07:20 <Steven> ... and some not

... and some not ←

14:07:32 <ShaneM> Have you considered http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/

Unknown ShaneM: Have you considered http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/ ←

14:07:52 <Steven> ... Google maps sends events into the containing page

... Google maps sends events into the containing page ←

14:08:23 <gshults> Gerrie Shults here. What phone # and code do I call?

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Unknown gshults: Gerrie Shults here. What phone # and code do I call? ←

14:10:00 <gshults> OK. It'll take me some time to get Skype installed and configured

Unknown gshults: OK. It'll take me some time to get Skype installed and configured ←

14:10:11 <Steven> sorry about that Gerrie

sorry about that Gerrie ←

14:10:40 <gshults> Some things just can't be helped/avoided.

Unknown gshults: Some things just can't be helped/avoided. ←

14:11:22 <oedipus> q cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#security"

Unknown oedipus: q cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#security" ←

14:11:22 <oedipus> "Application authors should be aware that content retrieved from another site is not itself trustable. Authors should protect themselves against cross-site scripting attacks by not rendering or executing the retrieved content directly without validating that content. Authors sharing content with domains that are on shared hosting environments should ensure to not allow access from arbitrary ports on those domains."

Unknown oedipus: "Application authors should be aware that content retrieved from another site is not itself trustable. Authors should protect themselves against cross-site scripting attacks by not rendering or executing the retrieved content directly without validating that content. Authors sharing content with domains that are on shared hosting environments should ensure to not allow access from arbitrary ports on those domains." ←

14:14:06 <yamx> Thank you for the reference.

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Unknown yamx: Thank you for the reference. ←

14:17:42 <Steven> Roland: So one of the core issues we should deal with is composition

Roland Merrick: So one of the core issues we should deal with is composition ←

14:18:14 <Steven> s/WHen/When/

14:20:32 <Steven> Roland: And make sure that composite objects are first class citizens, with security, events, etc all taken care of

Roland Merrick: And make sure that composite objects are first class citizens, with security, events, etc all taken care of ←

14:20:39 <Steven> ... we need to work with other groups, and we tqake care of the markup bit

... we need to work with other groups, and we take care of the markup bit ←

14:20:47 <Steven> s/tq/t/

14:22:16 <Steven> Roland: Many of the security problems are the fault of security experts being unable to explain the issues to the outside world

Roland Merrick: Many of the security problems are the fault of security experts being unable to explain the issues to the outside world ←

14:22:44 <Steven> ... people we need to work with iunclude UWA, Web API, Security

... people we need to work with iunclude UWA, Web API, Security ←

14:24:26 <Roland_> Web Security Context Working Group -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/wsc-charter

Roland Merrick: Web Security Context Working Group -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/wsc-charter ←

14:26:59 <Steven> Roland: Are there any other issues we need to address in XHTML2?

Roland Merrick: Are there any other issues we need to address in XHTML2? ←

14:27:31 <ShaneM> I think we need to publish an updated draft RIGHT NOW.  how can we do that?

Unknown ShaneM: I think we need to publish an updated draft RIGHT NOW. how can we do that? ←

14:27:46 <Steven> Steven: We have been waiting for RDFa, role to be ready to plug them all together

Steven Pemberton: We have been waiting for RDFa, role to be ready to plug them all together ←

14:29:00 <Steven> Roland: Should we be creating legacy modules?

Roland Merrick: Should we be creating legacy modules? ←

14:30:02 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2

ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 ←

14:30:47 <ShaneM> feel free to comment on the editors draft.  its current.

Unknown ShaneM: feel free to comment on the editors draft. its current. ←

14:30:49 <Steven> Steven: The question of new modules relates rather to M12N V2

Steven Pemberton: The question of new modules relates rather to M12N V2 ←

14:31:25 <oedipus> shane, ok - that's what i was checking over the weekend - i should check the issues list before posting anything, though...

Unknown oedipus: shane, ok - that's what i was checking over the weekend - i should check the issues list before posting anything, though... ←

14:32:26 <Steven> Rich: Then there is the naming problem

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Then there is the naming problem ←

14:32:37 <markbirbeck> I have to make still more changes to the RDFa syntax document :( so can't join yet.

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Unknown markbirbeck: I have to make still more changes to the RDFa syntax document :( so can't join yet. ←

14:32:38 <Steven> Alessio: XHTML2 SP1

Unknown Alessio: XHTML2 SP1 ←

14:33:10 <markbirbeck> But...can't we produce a modularised version of XHTML 2 using the current M12N?

Unknown markbirbeck: But...can't we produce a modularised version of XHTML 2 using the current M12N? ←

14:33:39 <markbirbeck> Would give XHTML 2 a little momentum if it was simply a set of modules/extensions to XHTML 1.1.

Unknown markbirbeck: Would give XHTML 2 a little momentum if it was simply a set of modules/extensions to XHTML 1.1. ←

14:33:41 <ShaneM> no you cannot

Unknown ShaneM: no you cannot ←

14:34:21 <oedipus> GJR: what would give XHTML2 momentum would be to go to TR before HTML5

Unknown GJR: what would give XHTML2 momentum would be to go to TR before HTML5 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

14:34:26 <ShaneM> I dont htink you all can hear me on skype...  steven can you check your mute or whatever?

Unknown ShaneM: I dont htink you all can hear me on skype... steven can you check your mute or whatever? ←

14:35:23 <Steven> SHane: ... crackle... splut...

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Unknown Shane: ... crackle... splut... ←

14:35:27 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/

14:35:40 <Steven> Now you realise Mark???

Now you realise Mark??? ←

14:35:42 <ShaneM> I will figure it put

Unknown ShaneM: I will figure it put ←

14:36:02 <ShaneM> I will stop call and calibrate microphone

Unknown ShaneM: I will stop call and calibrate microphone ←

14:36:30 <Steven> we will stop to get a coffee

we will stop to get a coffee ←

14:37:00 <Steven> Jersey??? What are you doing there?

Jersey??? What are you doing there? ←

14:37:24 <oedipus> er, new jersey, not the isle of...

Unknown oedipus: er, new jersey, not the isle of... ←

14:37:28 <Steven> ah!

ah! ←

14:37:38 <oedipus> but i consider myself a jerseyman above all else!

Unknown oedipus: but i consider myself a jerseyman above all else! ←

14:38:56 <Steven> Shane: A question

Unknown Shane: A question ←

14:39:23 <Steven> ... we should put a draft out of XHTML2 now, and we could do a M12n 2 at any time we wanted

... we should put a draft out of XHTML2 now, and we could do a M12n 2 at any time we wanted ←

14:39:50 <Steven> Roland: Will we be able to mix and match M12N2 and M12N 1.1 modules?

Roland Merrick: Will we be able to mix and match M12N2 and M12N 1.1 modules? ←

14:40:07 <Steven> Shane: No real need since every module in 1.1 is also in 2.0

Unknown Shane: No real need since every module in 1.1 is also in 2.0 ←

14:42:11 <Steven> Roland: Can we use the headers module from 1.1 for instance

Roland Merrick: Can we use the headers module from 1.1 for instance ←

14:42:37 <Steven> Shane: There isn't one, the text module is rather large in 1.1

Unknown Shane: There isn't one, the text module is rather large in 1.1 ←

14:42:44 <gshults> How do I call in with Skype?

Unknown gshults: How do I call in with Skype? ←

14:43:09 <gshults> thx

Unknown gshults: thx ←

14:43:10 <Steven> lowercase

lowercase ←

14:50:55 <Steven> Steven: Just got a reply from Mike Smith that he is OK with us moving forward with one implementation

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: Just got a reply from Mike Smith that he is OK with us moving forward with one implementation ←

14:59:25 <Steven> Shane: There are three things we have to do right now to get out a new XHTML2 WD

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Unknown Shane: What are the three things we have to do right now to get out a new XHTML2 WD? ←

15:00:30 <Steven> s/There are/What are the/

15:00:33 <Steven> s/WD/WD?/

15:00:59 <Steven> Shane: What is new: rdfa stuff, which is out of synch

Unknown Shane: What is new: rdfa stuff, which is out of synch ←

15:01:08 <Steven> Steven: But we can point to the RDFa spec now

Steven Pemberton: But we can point to the RDFa spec now ←

15:01:17 <Steven> ... like we do with XForms

... like we do with XForms ←

15:01:28 <Steven> Roland: And there is CURIEs and role

Roland Merrick: And there is CURIEs and role ←

15:01:47 <Steven> Shane: Not sure we can do it with RDFa

Unknown Shane: Not sure we can do it with RDFa ←

15:02:00 <Steven> ... because it is an M12N 1.1 module

... because it is an M12N 1.1 module ←

15:02:10 <Steven> Steven: But XFOrms is modularised at all (yet)

Steven Pemberton: But XForms is modularised at all (yet) ←

15:02:24 <Steven> s/XFO/XFo/

15:02:37 <Steven> Steven: The syntax is trivial

Steven Pemberton: The syntax is trivial ←

15:02:49 <Steven> ... we refer to RDFa for the semantics

... we refer to RDFa for the semantics ←

15:03:21 <Steven> Roland: Access is in XHTML2 as well

Roland Merrick: Access is in XHTML2 as well ←

15:03:31 <Steven> ... so we can refer to those too

... so we can refer to those too ←

15:03:58 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-access.html#s_accessmodule

Unknown oedipus: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-access.html#s_accessmodule ←

15:04:23 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-diff.html

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-diff.html ←

15:06:20 <Steven> Roland: So sections 23 and 24 can largely be deleted

Roland Merrick: So sections 23 and 24 can largely be deleted ←

15:07:52 <Steven> Steven: And PLEASE let us drop the style attribute

Steven Pemberton: And PLEASE let us drop the style attribute ←

15:08:02 <oedipus> 23 and 24 are the 2 metadata sections, right?

Unknown oedipus: 23 and 24 are the 2 metadata sections, right? ←

15:08:13 <Steven> Roland: We can move them to legacy modules

Roland Merrick: We can move them to legacy modules ←

15:09:08 <Steven> Shane: I think it is worth keeping the style attribute

Unknown Shane: I think it is worth keeping the style attribute ←

15:10:58 <oedipus> GJR: style as in 29, not 28? or both?

Unknown GJR: style as in 29, not 28? or both? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

15:11:20 <Steven> Shane: One of the reasons we have everything inline was to make a readable document.

Unknown Shane: One of the reasons we have everything inline was to make a readable document. ←

15:11:40 <Steven> ... where everything was defined in place

... where everything was defined in place ←

15:12:22 <Steven> ... I don't mind if we drop that requirement

... I don't mind if we drop that requirement ←

15:12:40 <oedipus> GJR: would be willing to give up 28 (which is really inline style declarations as substitue for FONT), but not 29

Unknown GJR: would be willing to give up 28 (which is really inline style declarations as substitue for FONT), but not 29 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

15:13:05 <Steven> I agree Gregory, but there is no consensus here I am afraid

I agree Gregory, but there is no consensus here I am afraid ←

15:13:25 <oedipus> well, count me as plus one to deleting 28 and retaining 29

Unknown oedipus: well, count me as plus one to deleting 28 and retaining 29 ←

15:13:29 <Steven> Yes, we are talking about 28, not 29

Yes, we are talking about 28, not 29 ←

15:14:22 <oedipus> section 29 is perilously close to HTML5's "Presentational markup" - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#presentational

Unknown oedipus: section 28 is perilously close to HTML5's "Presentational markup" - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#presentational ←

15:14:26 <ShaneM> basically we want to chnage section 4 so that some items are now outside the document - then remove the relevant sections.

Unknown ShaneM: basically we want to chnage section 4 so that some items are now outside the document - then remove the relevant sections. ←

15:14:40 <oedipus> s/section 29/section 28/

15:17:09 <Steven> Roland: Going back to headings and legacy

Roland Merrick: Going back to headings and legacy ←

15:19:29 <Steven> Steven: Well I think they are two different things. Firstly we need to decide what is in XHTML2, and secondly we need to decide what is M12N v2

Steven Pemberton: Well I think they are two different things. Firstly we need to decide what is in XHTML2, and secondly we need to decide what is M12N v2 ←

15:19:36 <Steven> Shane: But creating an h1-6 legacy module is fine

Unknown Shane: But creating an h1-6 legacy module is fine ←

15:19:46 <Steven> Steven: All *HTML* (where the *s are wildcards) shoukd be in a module somewhere

Steven Pemberton: All *HTML* (where the *s are wildcards) should be in a module somewhere ←

15:24:28 <Steven> s/kd/ld/

15:24:47 <Steven> Roland: Is there an M12N v2 document yet?

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Roland Merrick: Is there an M12N v2 document yet? ←

15:24:51 <Steven> Shane: no, only in the source tree

Unknown Shane: no, only in the source tree ←

15:25:27 <Steven> Roland: Is there anything else at this stage that needs to go into XHTML2?

Roland Merrick: Is there anything else at this stage that needs to go into XHTML2? ←

15:25:31 <Steven> Steven: Don't think so

Steven Pemberton: Don't think so ←

15:25:33 <Steven> Topic: XFrames

7. XFrames

15:25:47 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xframes

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xframes ←

15:25:53 <Steven> Roland: Why isn't iframe in XHTML2?

Roland Merrick: Why isn't iframe in XHTML2? ←

15:25:57 <Steven> Steven: Because everything you can do with iframe you can do with object

Steven Pemberton: Because everything you can do with iframe you can do with object ←

15:28:04 <Steven> Alessio: but object allows fallback

Unknown Alessio: but object allows fallback ←

15:28:55 <Steven> Rich: We should create a taxonomy for all elements like we did for ARIA

Richard Schwerdtfeger: We should create a taxonomy for all elements like we did for ARIA ←

15:29:20 <Steven> Roland: There is a question of familiarity

Roland Merrick: There is a question of familiarity ←

15:30:04 <oedipus> GJR: i may be mistaken, but with widgets and "Web 2.0" apps, framesets are far less common then they once were...

Unknown GJR: i may be mistaken, but with widgets and "Web 2.0" apps, framesets are far less common then they once were... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

15:31:24 <Steven> Gregory, the question was about iframe rather than framesets

Gregory, the question was about iframe rather than framesets ←

15:31:42 <Steven> but yes, it is true

but yes, it is true ←

15:31:53 <Steven> partly also because the design of framesets is so bad

partly also because the design of framesets is so bad ←

15:31:53 <oedipus> ah, well, what used to be in IFRAME is increasingly stuffed into a proprietary mime-type

Unknown oedipus: ah, well, what used to be in IFRAME is increasingly stuffed into a proprietary mime-type ←

15:32:06 <oedipus> GJR: such as flash, etc.

Unknown GJR: such as flash, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

15:32:35 <Steven> yes, and using DOM manipulation

yes, and using DOM manipulation ←

15:33:11 <oedipus> GJR: i am in agreement with StevenP and Alessio -- object rather than iframe should be the way to move forward

Unknown GJR: i am in agreement with StevenP and Alessio -- object rather than iframe should be the way to move forward [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

15:37:04 <Steven> Roland: I would like to adopt the "sub URIs visible in the top-level URI" feature of XFrames into XHTML2 as a whole

Roland Merrick: I would like to adopt the "sub URIs visible in the top-level URI" feature of XFrames into XHTML2 as a whole ←

15:37:40 <Steven> Rich: I agree in simplification (resucing the elements in the language)

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I agree in simplification (reducing the elements in the language) ←

15:37:46 <Steven> s/suc/duc/

15:41:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:41:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:41:56 <Steven> Present+Gerrie

Present+Gerrie ←

15:42:20 <Steven> Yam: Drop the name Frame

Toshihiko Yamakami: Drop the name Frame ←

15:42:30 <Steven> Steven: Yes, maybe it sends the wrong message

Steven Pemberton: Yes, maybe it sends the wrong message ←

15:42:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:42:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:43:22 <Steven> Regrets+Mark

Regrets+Mark ←

15:55:47 <Steven> Topic: TOmorrow's agenda

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

8. Tomorrow's agenda

15:56:27 <Steven> Roland: XML Events 2

Roland Merrick: XML Events 2 ←

15:56:27 <Steven> s/TO/To/

15:57:32 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/

Unknown ShaneM: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/ ←

15:57:53 <yamx> Thank you, Shane, for reference.

Unknown yamx: Thank you, Shane, for reference. ←

15:59:40 <Steven> ... and its relationship to XBL(2)

... and its relationship to XBL(2) ←

15:59:47 <Steven> ok

ok ←

15:59:51 <Steven> :-)

:-) ←

16:00:01 <Steven> We are cold, need to adjourn

We are cold, need to adjourn ←

16:00:05 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:00:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

16:00:21 <oedipus> thanks for facillitating (and putting up with) remote participation

Unknown oedipus: thanks for facillitating (and putting up with) remote participation ←

16:00:27 <Steven> ADJOURN

ADJOURN ←

16:01:26 <Steven> did I get it wrong???

did I get it wrong??? ←

16:01:30 <Steven> shame on me

shame on me ←

16:01:51 <oedipus> you left of the dot h t m l which is part of the URI

Unknown oedipus: you left of the dot h t m l which is part of the URI ←

16:02:10 <oedipus> it didn't show as a link, which is why i investigated via "edit"

Unknown oedipus: it didn't show as a link, which is why i investigated via "edit" ←

16:03:34 <Steven> well I did that deliberately

well I did that deliberately ←

16:04:02 <oedipus> ah, but the link won't work if there isn't a dot h t m l attached to it, unlike the IRC log URI

Unknown oedipus: ah, but the link won't work if there isn't a dot h t m l attached to it, unlike the IRC log URI ←

16:04:07 <Steven> W3C knows, and uses nontent negotiation when there are several resources

W3C knows, and uses nontent negotiation when there are several resources ←

16:04:18 <Steven> Yes it will!

Yes it will! ←

16:04:34 <oedipus> it didn't with IE, SeaMonkey or Minefield...

Unknown oedipus: it didn't with IE, SeaMonkey or Minefield... ←

16:05:01 <Steven> Works for me

Works for me ←

16:05:24 <oedipus> are you entering the URI into the location bar, or following the wiki link?

Unknown oedipus: are you entering the URI into the location bar, or following the wiki link? ←

16:05:53 <oedipus> works without the dot h t m l in lynx...

Unknown oedipus: works without the dot h t m l in lynx... ←

16:06:27 <oedipus> mediawiki is very picky about extentions -- anything without one, it treats as an internal resource

Unknown oedipus: mediawiki is very picky about extentions -- anything without one, it treats as an internal resource ←

16:07:24 <oedipus> i use media wiki on the linux foundation site, so am all too familiar with its peculiarities

Unknown oedipus: i use media wiki on the linux foundation site, so am all too familiar with its peculiarities ←

16:08:11 <Steven> ah, it is media wiki messing it up?

ah, it is media wiki messing it up? ←

16:08:13 <Steven> hmmm

hmmm ←

16:08:23 <oedipus> seems that XHTML tagging is disabled -- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Tag_extensions

Unknown oedipus: seems that XHTML tagging is disabled -- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Tag_extensions ←

16:08:54 <oedipus> tried to add an acronym expansion for W3C on my User:GJR page, but it appeared as part of the text, not as markup

Unknown oedipus: tried to add an acronym expansion for W3C on my User:GJR page, but it appeared as part of the text, not as markup ←

16:10:13 <oedipus> and, yes, it is media wiki messing up the content negotiation -- all wiki pages are in flat hierarchical structure -- what appears to be directory structure is an illusion, which is why ending a wiki URI with a trailing slash leads you not to an expected page, but to a "this page does not yet exist"

Unknown oedipus: and, yes, it is media wiki messing up the content negotiation -- all wiki pages are in flat hierarchical structure -- what appears to be directory structure is an illusion, which is why ending a wiki URI with a trailing slash leads you not to an expected page, but to a "this page does not yet exist" ←

16:11:01 <oedipus> in other words foo/foo2/index.html cannot be accessed using foo/foo2/, but needs the entire URI

Unknown oedipus: in other words foo/foo2/index.html cannot be accessed using foo/foo2/, but needs the entire URI ←

16:11:27 <oedipus> foo/foo2 and foo/foo2/ are 2 separate URIs where media wiki is concerned

Unknown oedipus: foo/foo2 and foo/foo2/ are 2 separate URIs where media wiki is concerned ←

16:11:54 <oedipus> which is why i had to set up redirects for each apparent "directory" at a11y.org

Unknown oedipus: which is why i had to set up redirects for each apparent "directory" at a11y.org ←

16:12:13 <oedipus> redirecting the URI with the trailing slash to an actual resource

Unknown oedipus: redirecting the URI with the trailing slash to an actual resource ←

16:17:08 <oedipus> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions/Code

Unknown oedipus: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions/Code ←

16:17:33 <oedipus> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions

Unknown oedipus: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions ←

16:18:16 <oedipus> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Security_issues_with_authorization_extensions

Unknown oedipus: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Security_issues_with_authorization_extensions ←

16:18:58 <oedipus> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix

Unknown oedipus: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix ←

16:19:28 <oedipus> probably more sysadmin stuff than you'd like, but media wiki can be a lot more flexible and secure with certain extensions

Unknown oedipus: probably more sysadmin stuff than you'd like, but media wiki can be a lot more flexible and secure with certain extensions ←

21:19:43 <Steven-eee> rrsagent, bye

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven-eee' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(No events recorded for 300 minutes)

Unknown Steven-eee: rrsagent, bye ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-actions.rdf : ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft [1]

ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft [1] ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-46

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-46 ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to Draft last call announcement [2]

ACTION: Steven to Draft last call announcement [2] ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-55

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-55 ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange [3]

ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange [3] ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-12-52

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-12-52 ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001 [4]

ACTION: Roland to reply to ISSUE-8001 [4] ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T10-31-11

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T10-31-11 ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module [5]

ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module [5] ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T11-28-41

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T11-28-41 ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 [6]

ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 [6] ←

21:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T14-30-02

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T14-30-02 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe