Meeting Record

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14:00:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-irc ←

14:01:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

14:01:08 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←

14:01:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ShaneM ←

14:01:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, alessio, gavin_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, krijnh

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, alessio, gavin_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, krijnh ←

14:01:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:01:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:01:19 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:01:39 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

14:01:44 <Steven> Chair: Steven

14:01:58 <ShaneM>  There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Luca Mascaro Michael Rawling Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45 ←

14:02:18 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013

14:02:30 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013 ←

14:03:04 <Steven> Regrets: Rich, Yam

Scribe problem: the name 'Rich' does not match any of the 6 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Luca Mascaro Michael Rawling Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami

14:03:29 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes Previous

Steven Pemberton: -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes Previous ←

14:04:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Luca Mascaro Michael Rawling Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, code? ←

14:04:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←

14:04:57 <Steven> xhtml Mark

Steven Pemberton: xhtml Mark ←

14:04:59 <Zakim> + +44.207.689.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.207.689.aaaa ←

14:05:10 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, i am aaaa ←

14:05:10 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←

14:06:19 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←

14:06:46 <Steven> zakim, ??P28 is Alessio

Steven Pemberton: zakim, ??P28 is Alessio ←

14:06:46 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

14:10:16 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

14:10:18 <Steven> Alessio: I am based in Rome, and travel between Italy and Switzerland on projects.

Alessio Cartocci: I am based in Rome, and travel between Italy and Switzerland on projects. ←

14:10:24 <Steven> ... I represent IWA here

... I represent IWA here ←

14:10:40 <Steven> ... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2

... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2 ←

14:10:47 <Steven> ... I have projects using SMIL

... I have projects using SMIL ←

14:11:03 <Steven> ... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics

... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics ←

14:11:09 <Steven> Steven: Welcome!

Steven Pemberton: Welcome! ←

14:11:26 <ShaneM>  I nominate Steven as acting Chair

Unknown ShaneM: I nominate Steven as acting Chair ←

14:11:50 <ShaneM>  markbirbeck: second

Unknown ShaneM: markbirbeck: second ←

14:14:11 <Steven> Topic: Actions

1. Actions

14:14:32 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in

[NEW] ACTION: Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in ←

14:14:32 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action06]

ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

14:14:37 <Steven> -- continues

-- continues ←

14:14:57 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa

[NEW] ACTION: Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa ←

14:14:57 <Steven> driver [recorded in

driver [recorded in ←

14:14:57 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action07]

ACTION-07]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#ACTION-07] ←

14:15:02 <Steven> -- done]

-- done ←

14:15:09 <Steven> s/]//

14:16:38 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute

[NEW] ACTION: Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute ←

14:16:38 <Steven> inheritance rules. [recorded in

inheritance rules. [recorded in ←

14:16:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action05]

ACTION-05]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#ACTION-05] ←

14:16:41 <Steven> - comtinues

- continues ←

14:16:47 <Steven> s/m/n/

14:16:57 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments

[NEW] ACTION: Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments ←

14:16:57 <Steven> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-minutes.html#action03]

[recorded in ACTION-03]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-minutes.html#ACTION-03] ←

14:17:02 <Steven> -- continues

-- continues ←

14:17:48 <Steven> Topic: Media type issue

2. Media type issue

14:17:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes#item05

http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes#item05 ←

14:19:03 <Steven> Alessio: We have this sort of problem with IE as well

Alessio Cartocci: We have this sort of problem with IE as well ←

14:19:11 <Steven> ... and we are moving to Firefox

... and we are moving to Firefox ←

14:19:20 <Steven> ... we need an interim solution

... we need an interim solution ←

14:19:36 <Steven> Steven: The issue for us at the moment is about this page:

Steven Pemberton: The issue for us at the moment is about this page: ←

14:19:54 <Steven> .... http://wwww.w3.org/Markup/Drafts

.... http://ww.w3.org/Markup/Drafts ←

14:19:59 <alessio> we could try to support correct visualization via scripting

Alessio Cartocci: we could try to support correct visualization via scripting ←

14:20:02 <ShaneM>  something like that.

Unknown ShaneM: something like that. ←

14:20:06 <Steven> s/ww/w/

14:20:12 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts

http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts ←

14:21:14 <Steven> Alessio: We need a practical solution

Alessio Cartocci: We need a practical solution ←

14:21:21 <Steven> ... I want to promote these standards

... I want to promote these standards ←

14:22:18 <ShaneM>  we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html

Unknown ShaneM: we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html ←

14:22:51 <Steven> Steven: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how

Steven Pemberton: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how ←

14:22:58 <alessio> yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

14:23:11 <Steven> Mark: THe browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Luca Mascaro Michael Rawling Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: The browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml ←

14:23:23 <Steven> Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Luca Mascaro Michael Rawling Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Steven Pemberton Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end ←

14:23:29 <Steven> s/TH/Th/

14:24:19 <Steven> My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml

My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml ←

14:24:31 <Steven> So it's hard for me to test

So it's hard for me to test ←

14:24:57 <Steven> Mark: We can send it as two docs and content negotiate

Unknown Mark: We can send it as two docs and content negotiate ←

14:25:12 <Steven> ... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as text/html

... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as text/html ←

14:26:08 <Steven> Alessio: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation

Alessio Cartocci: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation ←

14:26:40 <Steven> Steven: You think it is OK to send as text/html

Steven Pemberton: You think it is OK to send as text/html ←

14:26:47 <Steven> Alessio: Yes, but only to IE

Alessio Cartocci: Yes, but only to IE ←

14:27:45 <Steven> Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top

Unknown Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top ←

14:27:54 <Steven> Shane: It is not a simple problem

Unknown Shane: It is not a simple problem ←

14:28:02 <Steven> ... I have spent days on this

... I have spent days on this ←

14:28:23 <Steven> ... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world to do it

... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world to do it ←

14:28:29 <alessio> Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG

Alessio Cartocci: Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG ←

14:29:14 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps

ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps ←

14:29:37 <Steven> Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either

Unknown Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either ←

14:29:41 <Steven> Steven: We can work on that

Steven Pemberton: We can work on that ←

14:29:56 <Steven> Topic: [XHTML1.1] Error in Conformance Definition document?

3. [XHTML1.1] Error in Conformance Definition document?

14:29:56 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0002

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0002 ←

14:31:28 <Steven> Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html

Unknown Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html ←

14:32:00 <ShaneM>  FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts.

Unknown ShaneM: FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts. ←

14:32:56 <Steven> Steven: Two positions 1) Purist, which is valid, because it does charencoding right for instance

Steven Pemberton: Two positions 1) Purist, which is valid, because it does charencoding right for instance ←

14:33:41 <Steven> ... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA

... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA ←

14:33:43 <alessio> for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml

Alessio Cartocci: for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml ←

14:34:12 <Steven> Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document

Unknown Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document ←

14:34:22 <alessio> yes, I agree

Alessio Cartocci: yes, I agree ←

14:34:31 <Steven> ... look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance

... look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance ←

14:35:03 <Steven> Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules

Unknown Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules ←

14:36:39 <Steven> Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML

Unknown Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML ←

14:37:04 <Steven> ... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least

... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least ←

14:37:27 <Steven> ... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get confused

... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get confused ←

14:37:31 <Steven> ... this is a non-argument

... this is a non-argument ←

14:39:23 <Steven> Steven: I think we cannot agree to this request

Steven Pemberton: I think we cannot agree to this request ←

14:39:34 <Steven> Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too

Unknown Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too ←

14:40:09 <Steven> Steven: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities

Steven Pemberton: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities ←

14:40:26 <ShaneM>  and that's a good reason too.

Unknown ShaneM: and that's a good reason too. ←

14:42:20 <Steven> Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document

Unknown Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document ←

14:43:28 <Steven> Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser, just something that behaves like it

Unknown Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser, just something that behaves like it ←

14:43:52 <Steven> ... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that

... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that ←

14:44:17 <Steven> ... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported either

... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported either ←

14:44:34 <Steven> Mark: Why do we care about the aprsing?

Unknown Mark: Why do we care about the parsing? ←

14:44:42 <Steven> s/apr/par/

14:44:49 <Steven> SHane: Failure mode

Unknown Shane: Failure mode ←

14:44:52 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/

14:45:01 <Steven> Mark: Why do we care about that

Unknown Mark: Why do we care about that? ←

14:45:27 <Steven> Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid

Unknown Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid ←

14:45:38 <Steven> s/that/that?/

14:46:27 <Steven> Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does

Unknown Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does ←

14:46:32 <Steven> Steven: We do say that

Steven Pemberton: We do say that ←

14:46:55 <Steven> Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just that it is undefined

Unknown Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just that it is undefined ←

14:47:27 <Steven> ... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort

... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort ←

14:47:33 <Steven> ... why bother

... why bother? ←

14:47:33 <ShaneM>  Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content

Unknown ShaneM: Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content ←

14:47:46 <Steven> Steven: Because XML says it should

Steven Pemberton: Because XML says it should ←

14:48:07 <Steven> s/bother/bother?/

14:49:24 <Steven> Alessio: This would be a great help to the developer

Alessio Cartocci: This would be a great help to the developer ←

14:49:46 <ShaneM>  we currently say this (in XHTML 2): #

Unknown ShaneM: we currently say this (in XHTML 2): # ←

14:49:46 <ShaneM>

Unknown ShaneM: ←

14:49:46 <ShaneM> The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML].

Unknown ShaneM: The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML]. ←

14:50:09 <alessio> browser itself validates...

Alessio Cartocci: browser itself validates... ←

14:51:21 <Steven> Steven: This discussion just supports our discussion in Venice

Steven Pemberton: This discussion just supports our discussion in Venice ←

14:51:59 <Steven> ... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to the end user, which after all, is what it is all about

... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to the end user, which after all, is what it is all about ←

14:52:36 <ShaneM>  Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type.

Unknown ShaneM: Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type. ←

14:52:43 <Steven> Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to match what we want

Unknown Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to match what we want ←

14:53:41 <Steven> Shane: We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid docs

Unknown Shane: We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid docs ←

14:55:03 <ShaneM>  For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined.

Unknown ShaneM: For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined. ←

14:55:36 <Steven> Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype

Unknown Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype ←

14:55:53 <Steven> ... which includes the ability to handle />

... which includes the ability to handle /> ←

14:57:30 <ShaneM>  ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1

Unknown ShaneM: ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1 ←

14:57:37 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

14:57:47 <Steven> RESOLUTION: In the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST

RESOLVED: With the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST ←

14:57:55 <Steven> s/In/With/

14:58:17 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

14:58:19 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

14:58:20 <Steven> ADJOURNED

ADJOURNED ←

14:58:21 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

14:58:26 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended ←

14:58:30 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio ←

14:58:37 <Steven> rrsagen, make minutes

rrsagen, make minutes ←

14:58:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:58:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:00:40 <alessio> I have some rust on my spoken english, be patient :)

Alessio Cartocci: I have some rust on my spoken english, be patient :) ←

15:01:33 <alessio> bye all

Alessio Cartocci: bye all ←

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