as for reviews, all reviews should cover substantive issues, structure, and editorial issues
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14:52:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-sparql-irc ←
14:52:45 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, this will be SPARQL
Axel Polleres: Zakim, this will be SPARQL ←
14:52:45 <Zakim> ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes ←
14:53:02 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-11
14:53:15 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres
14:53:35 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Paul Gearon, Olivier Corby
Scribe problem: the name 'Paul Gearon' does not match any of the 62 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Carlos Buil Aranda Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nicholas Humfrey Nico Michaelis Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Umberto Straccia Yoshio Fukushige
14:56:47 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started ←
14:56:54 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
14:57:05 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P4 is me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, ??P4 is me ←
14:57:05 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
14:57:18 <Zakim> +SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH ←
14:57:32 <SteveH> UK users rushing to get lines :)
Steve Harris: UK users rushing to get lines :) ←
14:57:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:57:51 <SteveH> IPcaller has breathing noise
Steve Harris: IPcaller has breathing noise ←
14:57:52 <cbuilara> Zakim, +IPcaller is me
Carlos Buil Aranda: Zakim, +IPcaller is me ←
14:57:52 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller' ←
14:57:59 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres ←
14:58:17 <SteveH> Zakim, who's speaking?
Steve Harris: Zakim, who's speaking? ←
14:58:28 <Zakim> SteveH, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bglimm (24%), [IPcaller] (39%), AxelPolleres (50%)
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bglimm (24%), [IPcaller] (39%), AxelPolleres (50%) ←
14:58:44 <cbuilara> Zakim, ??IPcaller is me
Carlos Buil Aranda: Zakim, ??IPcaller is me ←
14:58:44 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '??IPcaller'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '??IPcaller' ←
14:58:44 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
14:58:45 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:58:50 <cbuilara> Zakim, IPcaller is me
Carlos Buil Aranda: Zakim, IPcaller is me ←
14:58:50 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cbuilara; got it ←
14:59:03 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
14:59:08 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P12 is me ←
14:59:08 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
14:59:09 <Zakim> +kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei ←
14:59:12 <SteveH> cbuilara, can you mute, your mic is very noisy
Steve Harris: cbuilara, can you mute, your mic is very noisy ←
14:59:17 <AndyS> Hi all
Andy Seaborne: Hi all ←
14:59:45 <Zakim> + +49.911.973.4.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.911.973.4.aaaa ←
15:00:02 <NicoM> zakim, +49.911 is me
Nico Michaelis: zakim, +49.911 is me ←
15:00:10 <Zakim> +NicoM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NicoM; got it ←
15:01:01 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:01:04 <AndyS> zakim, be happy
Andy Seaborne: zakim, be happy ←
15:01:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'be happy', AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'be happy', AndyS ←
15:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aabb ←
15:01:36 <MattPerry> zakim, aabb is me
Matthew Perry: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:01:51 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MattPerry; got it ←
15:02:22 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:03:43 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone ←
15:03:55 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:03:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres ←
15:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see bglimm (muted), SteveH, cbuilara, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, NicoM, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bglimm (muted), SteveH, cbuilara, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, NicoM, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro ←
15:04:39 <Zakim> + +3539149aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +3539149aacc ←
15:04:41 <Zakim> + +1.216.636.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.636.aadd ←
15:04:45 <AlexPassant> ok
Alexandre Passant: ok ←
15:04:51 <AlexPassant> Zakim, 3539149aacc is me
Alexandre Passant: Zakim, 3539149aacc is me ←
15:04:53 <AlexPassant> I'll do it
Alexandre Passant: I'll do it ←
15:04:57 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '3539149aacc'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '3539149aacc' ←
15:04:58 <chimezie> Zakim, +1.216.636.aadd is me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, +1.216.636.aadd is me ←
15:05:02 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Alex Passant
(Scribe set to Alexandre Passant)
15:05:03 <Zakim> +chimezie; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +chimezie; got it ←
15:05:12 <AlexPassant> Zakim, +3539149aacc is me
Zakim, +3539149aacc is me ←
15:05:17 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it ←
15:05:28 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-11
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-11 ←
15:06:11 <AlexPassant> topic: admin
15:06:15 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-12-21
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-12-21 ←
15:06:17 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: approve minutes for the last meeting
Axel Polleres: approve minutes for the last meeting ←
15:06:19 <Zakim> + +44.164.235.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.164.235.aaee ←
15:06:19 <AlexPassant> ... comments ?
... comments ? ←
15:06:42 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-12-21
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-12-21 ←
15:06:44 <AlexPassant> ... minutes approved
... minutes approved ←
15:06:52 <NickH> zakim, +44.164.235.aaee is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, +44.164.235.aaee is me ←
15:06:52 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:06:56 <NickH> (I think)
Nicholas Humfrey: (I think) ←
15:07:08 <AlexPassant> ... current comments
... current comments ←
15:07:14 <AlexPassant> ... some comments over the break
... some comments over the break ←
15:07:23 <AlexPassant> ... draft responses that need approval
... draft responses that need approval ←
15:07:25 <AlexPassant> ... or discussion
... or discussion ←
15:07:39 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:JP-2 from Andy
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:JP-2 from Andy ←
15:07:45 <AlexPassant> ... JP-2 - comment from AndyS
... JP-2 - comment from AndyS ←
15:08:06 <AndyS> LeeF has tentatively approved it. ideally, want a second +1
Andy Seaborne: LeeF has tentatively approved it. ideally, want a second +1 ←
15:08:06 <AlexPassant> ... next one, Ian Davis comment
... next one, Ian Davis comment ←
15:08:08 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:ID-1
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:ID-1 ←
15:08:13 <AlexPassant> ... response drafted from chimezie
... response drafted from chimezie ←
15:08:44 <SteveH> also http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:DBeckett-1
Steve Harris: also http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:DBeckett-1 ←
15:08:44 <AlexPassant> ... discussion on the list around the comment
... discussion on the list around the comment ←
15:09:08 <AlexPassant> chimezie: one comment about the term "RDF knowledge"
Chimezie Ogbuji: one comment about the term "RDF knowledge" ←
15:09:28 <AlexPassant> ... beyond that, would be good to have input
... beyond that, would be good to have input ←
15:09:40 <AlexPassant> ... some things he asks are about graph storage
... some things he asks are about graph storage ←
15:09:42 <AxelPolleres> wait until we have resolved that terminology....
Axel Polleres: wait until we have resolved that terminology.... ←
15:10:07 <AlexPassant> ... please people look at it and comment if you're not ok with it
... please people look at it and comment if you're not ok with it ←
15:10:50 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses
ACTION: update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses ←
15:10:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - update
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - update ←
15:11:01 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses
ACTION: Axel to update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses ←
15:11:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-353 - Update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-353 - Update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:11:10 <AlexPassant> ... next regular meeting in a week
... next regular meeting in a week ←
15:11:15 <AlexPassant> ... scribe : olivier
... scribe : olivier ←
15:11:39 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
15:11:43 <AxelPolleres> topic: To Last Call
Summary: as for reviews, all reviews should cover substantive issues, structure, and editorial issues
15:11:52 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call ←
15:12:03 <AlexPassant> ... collecting topics on LC on the wiki
... collecting topics on LC on the wiki ←
15:12:07 <AlexPassant> ... ask ediors to complete this asap
... ask ediors to complete this asap ←
15:12:39 <AlexPassant> ... and mention what's missing
... and mention what's missing ←
15:12:46 <AlexPassant> ... query document
... query document ←
15:12:52 <AlexPassant> SteveH: 2 things on the TODO list
Steve Harris: 2 things on the TODO list ←
15:12:56 <AlexPassant> ... check subqueries
... check subqueries ←
15:13:03 <AlexPassant> ... english language
... english language ←
15:13:20 <SteveH> no
Steve Harris: no ←
15:13:24 <AndyS> Ah.
Andy Seaborne: Ah. ←
15:13:26 <Zakim> +??P50
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P50 ←
15:13:36 <AndyS> Steve - theer is the formal section to complete for agg/group.
Andy Seaborne: Steve - theer is the formal section to complete for agg/group. ←
15:13:37 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P50 is me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, ??P50 is me ←
15:13:37 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
15:13:57 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
15:13:57 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
15:14:02 <AxelPolleres> seems we can't hear andy
Axel Polleres: seems we can't hear andy ←
15:14:10 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me ←
15:14:10 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted ←
15:14:11 <SteveH> AndyS, I think that's done, but feel free to point me to missing bits after the call
Steve Harris: AndyS, I think that's done, but feel free to point me to missing bits after the call ←
15:14:29 <NickH> <silence>
Nicholas Humfrey: <silence> ←
15:14:30 <AndyS> Steve - not in copy I see - the vars things don't line up yet. Offline.
Andy Seaborne: Steve - not in copy I see - the vars things don't line up yet. Offline. ←
15:14:31 <AxelPolleres> andy, maybe redai, we can't heaer you it seems
Axel Polleres: andy, maybe redai, we can't heaer you it seems ←
15:14:37 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
15:14:44 <Zakim> -NicoM
Zakim IRC Bot: -NicoM ←
15:14:55 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: comprehensie list of pending issues
Axel Polleres: comprehensie list of pending issues ←
15:15:09 <AlexPassant> ... any reviewer for the query document ?
... any reviewer for the query document ? ←
15:15:20 <LeeF> Me please
Lee Feigenbaum: Me please ←
15:15:20 <bglimm> I can review Query again
Birte Glimm: I can review Query again ←
15:15:22 <MattPerry> I can review it ... I just signed up
Matthew Perry: I can review it ... I just signed up ←
15:15:26 <LeeF> haha
Lee Feigenbaum: haha ←
15:15:29 <LeeF> everyone wants to review query!
Lee Feigenbaum: everyone wants to review query! ←
15:15:30 <AlexPassant> ... at leaast 2 reviews per document
... at leaast 2 reviews per document ←
15:15:42 <bglimm> Lots of volunteers ;-)
Birte Glimm: Lots of volunteers ;-) ←
15:15:45 <AlexPassant> ... LeeF , bglimm and MattPerry volunteer
... LeeF , bglimm and MattPerry volunteer ←
15:16:12 <AlexPassant> LeeF: sturctural changes, language changes ...
Lee Feigenbaum: sturctural changes, language changes ... ←
15:16:18 <AlexPassant> ... review to be as comprehensive as possible
... review to be as comprehensive as possible ←
15:16:38 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: next: update
Axel Polleres: next: update ←
15:17:03 <AxelPolleres> Alex: got an email from Andy on editorial comments ...
Alexandre Passant: got an email from Andy on editorial comments ... [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
15:17:08 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
15:17:10 <AxelPolleres> ... main thing missing formal model
Axel Polleres: ... main thing missing formal model ←
15:17:16 <AndyS> zakim, ??P15 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P15 is me ←
15:17:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:18:07 <SteveH> ok to review update document
Steve Harris: ok to review update document ←
15:18:18 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Alex to wiki-to-last-call doc regarding update
ACTION: Alex to wiki-to-last-call doc regarding update ←
15:18:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-354 - Wiki-to-last-call doc regarding update [on Alexandre Passant - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-354 - Wiki-to-last-call doc regarding update [on Alexandre Passant - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:18:44 <AxelPolleres> Andy: did Alex take into account august comments
Andy Seaborne: did Alex take into account august comments [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
15:18:47 <Zakim> +NicoM
Zakim IRC Bot: +NicoM ←
15:18:54 <AxelPolleres> Alex: should be, except if I missed something.
Alexandre Passant: should be, except if I missed something. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
15:19:44 <AxelPolleres> Axel: would help if you add names to each item on the wiki
Axel Polleres: would help if you add names to each item on the wiki [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
15:20:04 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: next one: protocol
Axel Polleres: next one: protocol ←
15:20:10 <AlexPassant> ... wiki page on the formal protocol issues
... wiki page on the formal protocol issues ←
15:20:18 <AlexPassant> LeeF: wiki page still accurate
Lee Feigenbaum: wiki page still accurate ←
15:20:24 <AlexPassant> ... greg trying to help the protocol document
... greg trying to help the protocol document ←
15:20:44 <AxelPolleres> Greg will help on protocol, lee tries to help... great!
Axel Polleres: Greg will help on protocol, lee tries to help... great! ←
15:20:51 <AlexPassant> ... different things we want to support based on the last protocol TC
... different things we want to support based on the last protocol TC ←
15:20:56 <AlexPassant> ... direct POSTing of SPARQL update queries
... direct POSTing of SPARQL update queries ←
15:21:05 <AlexPassant> ... form-encoding conventions
... form-encoding conventions ←
15:21:19 <AlexPassant> ... done some research on how to use WSDL
... done some research on how to use WSDL ←
15:21:45 <AlexPassant> ... got comments on email and twitter
... got comments on email and twitter ←
15:21:58 <AlexPassant> ... in favor of being a HTTP only protocol for SPARQL 1.1
... in favor of being a HTTP only protocol for SPARQL 1.1 ←
15:22:07 <AlexPassant> ... bindings to HTTP
... bindings to HTTP ←
15:22:20 <AlexPassant> ... anybody can go ahead with WSDL bindings
... anybody can go ahead with WSDL bindings ←
15:22:44 <AlexPassant> ... if protocol goes HTTP only, SOAP wont be a standard implementation
... if protocol goes HTTP only, SOAP wont be a standard implementation ←
15:22:52 <AlexPassant> ... need to decide if that's what the WG wants
... need to decide if that's what the WG wants ←
15:23:04 <AlexPassant> ... some additional degree of work on the protocol
... some additional degree of work on the protocol ←
15:23:20 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: we have that later on the agenda
Axel Polleres: we have that later on the agenda ←
15:23:23 <AlexPassant> ... but can discuss now
... but can discuss now ←
15:23:45 <AlexPassant> ... any open question
... any open question ←
15:23:50 <AlexPassant> .. or everyone fine for that solution
... or everyone fine for that solution ←
15:24:02 <AlexPassant> ... drop WSDL in SPARQL protocol and got an HTTP only protocol
... drop WSDL in SPARQL protocol and got an HTTP only protocol ←
15:24:06 <LeeF> Proposal would be to drop WSDL from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol and define the protocol only as an HTTP protocol
Lee Feigenbaum: Proposal would be to drop WSDL from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol and define the protocol only as an HTTP protocol ←
15:24:26 <AlexPassant> s/.. or/... or/
15:24:36 <AlexPassant> LeeF: anybody will be concerned about dropping it ?
Lee Feigenbaum: anybody will be concerned about dropping it ? ←
15:24:37 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: to drop WSDL from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol and define the protocol only as an HTTP protocol
PROPOSED: to drop WSDL from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol and define the protocol only as an HTTP protocol ←
15:24:46 <chimezie> second
Chimezie Ogbuji: second ←
15:24:47 <bglimm> +1
Birte Glimm: +1 ←
15:24:48 <AndyS> seconded
Andy Seaborne: seconded ←
15:24:53 <AlexPassant> +1
+1 ←
15:24:54 <cbuilara> +1
Carlos Buil Aranda: +1 ←
15:25:15 <SteveH> +0.5
Steve Harris: +0.5 ←
15:25:21 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
15:26:08 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: to drop WSDL from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol and define the protocol only as an HTTP protocol
RESOLVED: to drop WSDL from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol and define the protocol only as an HTTP protocol ←
15:26:11 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:26:30 <AxelPolleres> (no objections)
Axel Polleres: (no objections) ←
15:27:25 <AlexPassant> AndyS: JSON and protocol issues
Andy Seaborne: JSON and protocol issues ←
15:27:34 <SteveH> JSONP I think
Steve Harris: JSONP I think ←
15:27:36 <AlexPassant> LeeF: issue with cross-domain
Lee Feigenbaum: issue with cross-domain ←
15:27:43 <kasei> q+
Gregory Williams: q+ ←
15:27:53 <AndyS> ack AndyS
Andy Seaborne: ack AndyS ←
15:28:03 <AlexPassant> ... adding to the protocol page
... adding to the protocol page ←
15:28:22 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
15:28:42 <AlexPassant> kasei: would not pursue it
Gregory Williams: would not pursue it ←
15:28:47 <AlexPassant> ... and consider CORS
... and consider CORS ←
15:28:56 <SteveH> CORS is a while oof being widely available
Steve Harris: CORS is a while oof being widely available ←
15:29:07 <SteveH> *off
Steve Harris: *off ←
15:29:49 <SteveH> it's been around since FF3.5 / Safari 4
Steve Harris: it's been around since FF3.5 / Safari 4 ←
15:29:55 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: objections or support ?
Axel Polleres: objections or support ? ←
15:30:10 <Zakim> +??P52
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P52 ←
15:30:16 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P52 is me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, ??P52 is me ←
15:30:16 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
15:30:18 <AlexPassant> http://enable-cors.org/
15:30:21 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
15:30:21 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
15:30:32 <AndyS> agree with SteveH -- CORS is done (std) but deployment rollout is the issue (browsers and servers)
Andy Seaborne: agree with SteveH -- CORS is done (std) but deployment rollout is the issue (browsers and servers) ←
15:30:44 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
15:30:55 <AlexPassant> sandro: no ise of the deployement timeframe
Sandro Hawke: no ise of the deployement timeframe ←
15:31:06 <AlexPassant> ... whether users and JS developers will be happy to use that
... whether users and JS developers will be happy to use that ←
15:31:18 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: leave that open for the moment
Axel Polleres: leave that open for the moment ←
15:31:26 <AlexPassant> ... not sure we can include in the protocol doc
... not sure we can include in the protocol doc ←
15:31:34 <AlexPassant> sandro: we could put it at risk and ask for comments
Sandro Hawke: we could put it at risk and ask for comments ←
15:31:47 <kasei> regarding "at risk", it's not in the doc right now, and I'm the only one who brought up the issue.
Gregory Williams: regarding "at risk", it's not in the doc right now, and I'm the only one who brought up the issue. ←
15:33:08 <AlexPassant> kasei: no one has brought the issue yet
Gregory Williams: no one has brought the issue yet ←
15:33:42 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: reviewers for protocol
Axel Polleres: reviewers for protocol ←
15:33:55 <LeeF> We need at least 2 reviewers.
Lee Feigenbaum: We need at least 2 reviewers. ←
15:33:57 <cbuilara> I can review
Carlos Buil Aranda: I can review ←
15:34:09 <AlexPassant> ... AndyS agreed
... AndyS agreed ←
15:34:19 <AlexPassant> ... cbuilara agreed
... cbuilara agreed ←
15:34:29 <AlexPassant> ... next document : service description
... next document : service description ←
15:34:48 <AlexPassant> kasei: most issues taken into account
Gregory Williams: most issues taken into account ←
15:34:52 <AlexPassant> ... few editorial issues remaining
... few editorial issues remaining ←
15:35:03 <AlexPassant> ... aligning links between service description and protocol document
... aligning links between service description and protocol document ←
15:35:46 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: closed to be reviewed
Axel Polleres: closed to be reviewed ←
15:35:58 <AlexPassant> ... LeeF volunteer. needs another one
... LeeF volunteer. needs another one ←
15:36:31 <NicoM> ok
Nico Michaelis: ok ←
15:36:47 <AlexPassant> ... NicoM agreed
... NicoM agreed ←
15:37:33 <AlexPassant> kasei: reviews could start soon
Gregory Williams: reviews could start soon ←
15:37:52 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Lee to review SD documents for LC
ACTION: Lee to review SD documents for LC ←
15:37:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-355 - Review SD documents for LC [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-355 - Review SD documents for LC [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:37:57 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Nico to review SD documents for LC
ACTION: Nico to review SD documents for LC ←
15:37:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-356 - Review SD documents for LC [on Nico Michaelis - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-356 - Review SD documents for LC [on Nico Michaelis - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:38:13 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant ←
15:38:14 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
15:38:19 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:38:19 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted ←
15:38:45 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0529.html
Axel Polleres: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0529.html ←
15:39:04 <bglimm> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Birte Glimm: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:39:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, AxelPolleres, kasei, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro, chimezie, NickH, AndyS, NicoM, bglimm (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see cbuilara, AxelPolleres, kasei, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro, chimezie, NickH, AndyS, NicoM, bglimm (muted) ←
15:39:49 <AxelPolleres> Steve, Andy, SteveH agreed a solution
Axel Polleres: Steve, Andy, SteveH agreed a solution ←
15:40:02 <Zakim> +AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant ←
15:40:40 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/63
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/63 ←
15:41:09 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-63 based on ?default syntax for handling updates to default graph
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-63 based on ?default syntax for handling updates to default graph ←
15:41:20 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: default graphs in update
Axel Polleres: default graphs in update ←
15:41:39 <AlexPassant> chimezie: query component with ?default
Chimezie Ogbuji: query component with ?default ←
15:41:44 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
15:41:50 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P30 is me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, ??P30 is me ←
15:41:50 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
15:41:50 <AlexPassant> ... understood that operation applies to the default graph context
... understood that operation applies to the default graph context ←
15:41:53 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
15:41:53 <Zakim> bglimm was already muted, bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm was already muted, bglimm ←
15:41:57 <AndyS> seconded
Andy Seaborne: seconded ←
15:41:59 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
15:42:05 <kasei> q-
Gregory Williams: q- ←
15:42:12 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:42:15 <chimezie> +1
Chimezie Ogbuji: +1 ←
15:42:35 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-63 based on ?default syntax for handling updates to default graph
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-63 based on ?default syntax for handling updates to default graph ←
15:42:44 <AxelPolleres> close ISSUE-63
Axel Polleres: close ISSUE-63 ←
15:42:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-63 Handling of default graph in HTTP update protocol closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-63 Handling of default graph in HTTP update protocol closed ←
15:42:57 <AndyS> zakim, who is speaking?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is speaking? ←
15:43:05 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is speaking?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is speaking? ←
15:43:08 <Zakim> AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Phil (5%), bglimm.a (51%)
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Phil (5%), bglimm.a (51%) ←
15:43:18 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Phil (5%), AxelPolleres (19%), bglimm.a (57%)
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Phil (5%), AxelPolleres (19%), bglimm.a (57%) ←
15:43:18 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, mute bglimm.a
Axel Polleres: Zakim, mute bglimm.a ←
15:43:20 <Zakim> bglimm.a should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm.a should now be muted ←
15:43:23 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
15:43:23 <Zakim> bglimm was already muted, bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm was already muted, bglimm ←
15:43:32 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
15:43:36 <bglimm> I am now bglimm and bglimm.a :-(
Birte Glimm: I am now bglimm and bglimm.a :-( ←
15:43:38 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: next one on the title of the document
Axel Polleres: next one on the title of the document ←
15:43:48 <AxelPolleres> Thoughts on Dave Beckett's comments re: name? (search for "uniform" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Dec/0001.html)
Axel Polleres: Thoughts on Dave Beckett's comments re: name? (search for "uniform" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Dec/0001.html) ←
15:43:53 <bglimm> Zakim, bglimm.a is bglimm
Birte Glimm: Zakim, bglimm.a is bglimm ←
15:43:53 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
15:43:54 <AlexPassant> ... based on Dave Beckett comment
... based on Dave Beckett comment ←
15:43:59 <AlexPassant> chimezie: David gave one
Chimezie Ogbuji: David gave one ←
15:44:03 <AlexPassant> ... agreed to make it shorter
... agreed to make it shorter ←
15:44:17 <AlexPassant> ... suggestion "SPARQL 1.1 RDF graph management protocol"
... suggestion "SPARQL 1.1 RDF graph management protocol" ←
15:44:24 <AndyS> The word "management" is also a bit odd to me. "management" does not associate with GET to me.
Andy Seaborne: The word "management" is also a bit odd to me. "management" does not associate with GET to me. ←
15:44:33 <LeeF> SPARQL 1.1 Basically RESTful But Maybe Not Strictly RESTful HTTP Protocol
Lee Feigenbaum: SPARQL 1.1 Basically RESTful But Maybe Not Strictly RESTful HTTP Protocol ←
15:44:36 <AlexPassant> ... concrete suggestion would be "SPARQL 1.1 HTTP protocol for managing RDF (graphs)"
... concrete suggestion would be "SPARQL 1.1 HTTP protocol for managing RDF (graphs)" ←
15:44:46 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.1 RESTful graph protocol.
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL 1.1 RESTful graph protocol. ←
15:45:10 <AlexPassant> SPARQL 1.1 HTTP protocol
SPARQL 1.1 HTTP protocol ←
15:45:42 <SteveH> PARQL 1.1 HTTP graph protocol
Steve Harris: PARQL 1.1 HTTP graph protocol ←
15:45:45 <LeeF> What about removing "SPARQL 1.1" from the name?
Lee Feigenbaum: What about removing "SPARQL 1.1" from the name? ←
15:45:49 <AxelPolleres> SPARQL 1.1 RESTful graph management protocol
Axel Polleres: SPARQL 1.1 RESTful graph management protocol ←
15:45:56 <chimezie> my suggestion "SPARQL 1.1 HTTP Graph Management Protocol"
Chimezie Ogbuji: my suggestion "SPARQL 1.1 HTTP Graph Management Protocol" ←
15:45:57 <AndyS> +1 to SteveH
Andy Seaborne: +1 to SteveH ←
15:45:57 <kasei> SteveH, haha
Gregory Williams: SteveH, haha ←
15:46:04 <SteveH> you don't need RESTful, and protocol
Steve Harris: you don't need RESTful, and protocol ←
15:46:39 <SteveH> ...but it's not clear without
Steve Harris: ...but it's not clear without ←
15:46:56 <AxelPolleres> RDF graph management protocol
Axel Polleres: RDF graph management protocol ←
15:47:20 <SteveH> SPARQL is kind of a brand
Steve Harris: SPARQL is kind of a brand ←
15:47:28 <SteveH> helps users know what to expect
Steve Harris: helps users know what to expect ←
15:47:48 <AndyS> And spec uses SPARQL Update for defn.
Andy Seaborne: And spec uses SPARQL Update for defn. ←
15:47:48 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Chime to collect name suggestions for HTTP protocol and arrive with proposal for title until next TC
ACTION: Chime to collect name suggestions for HTTP protocol and arrive with proposal for title until next TC ←
15:47:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-357 - Collect name suggestions for HTTP protocol and arrive with proposal for title until next TC [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-357 - Collect name suggestions for HTTP protocol and arrive with proposal for title until next TC [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:48:23 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call ←
15:48:32 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: next document : entailement regime
Axel Polleres: next document : entailement regime ←
15:48:36 <AlexPassant> ... no issues recorded
... no issues recorded ←
15:48:41 <AxelPolleres> Birte?
Axel Polleres: Birte? ←
15:48:42 <bglimm> yes
Birte Glimm: yes ←
15:48:46 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:48:46 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
15:49:13 <AlexPassant> bglimm: document can be reviewed
Birte Glimm: document can be reviewed ←
15:49:25 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
15:49:25 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
15:49:27 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: reviewers for the HTTP protocol document
Axel Polleres: reviewers for the HTTP protocol document ←
15:49:49 <AlexPassant> ... AndyS already agreed
... AndyS already agreed ←
15:49:56 <NickH> I am a bit short of time
Nicholas Humfrey: I am a bit short of time ←
15:49:59 <NickH> but I will try
Nicholas Humfrey: but I will try ←
15:50:03 <SteveH> I can do it, probably
Steve Harris: I can do it, probably ←
15:50:06 <AlexPassant> ... NickH agreed
... NickH agreed ←
15:50:06 <AndyS> q+ to ask about when reviewing can start (all docs)
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about when reviewing can start (all docs) ←
15:50:11 <AlexPassant> ... SteveH agreed
... SteveH agreed ←
15:50:34 <LeeF> when the editors say "go"
Lee Feigenbaum: when the editors say "go" ←
15:51:00 <AlexPassant> ... want to start reviews as soon as docs are ready
... want to start reviews as soon as docs are ready ←
15:51:37 <bglimm> Yes
Birte Glimm: Yes ←
15:52:13 <LeeF> I will ask Kendall.
Lee Feigenbaum: I will ask Kendall. ←
15:52:22 <bglimm> +1
Birte Glimm: +1 ←
15:52:27 <AlexPassant> ... volunteer for entailement ?
... volunteer for entailement ? ←
15:52:37 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: leeF to ask kendall for review of the Entailment regimes doc
ACTION: leeF to ask kendall for review of the Entailment regimes doc ←
15:52:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-358 - Ask kendall for review of the Entailment regimes doc [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-358 - Ask kendall for review of the Entailment regimes doc [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:53:31 <MattPerry> I can ask around for another team member here at Oracle
Matthew Perry: I can ask around for another team member here at Oracle ←
15:53:45 <MattPerry> ok
Matthew Perry: ok ←
15:54:02 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Matt to find someone in Oracle to review entailment regimes doc
ACTION: Matt to find someone in Oracle to review entailment regimes doc ←
15:54:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Matt
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Matt ←
15:54:56 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Matthew to find someone in Oracle to review entailment regimes doc
ACTION: Matthew to find someone in Oracle to review entailment regimes doc ←
15:54:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-359 - Find someone in Oracle to review entailment regimes doc [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-359 - Find someone in Oracle to review entailment regimes doc [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:57:12 <AxelPolleres> next document: federated query
Axel Polleres: next document: federated query ←
15:57:30 <AlexPassant> ... issues will be summarised by email
... issues will be summarised by email ←
15:57:45 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Carlos to summarise and discuss Fed query issue on silent on mail
ACTION: Carlos to summarise and discuss Fed query issue on silent on mail ←
15:57:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-360 - Summarise and discuss Fed query issue on silent on mail [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-01-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-360 - Summarise and discuss Fed query issue on silent on mail [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-01-18]. ←
15:58:59 <AlexPassant> kasei: put a call for comments and no response
Gregory Williams: put a call for comments and no response ←
15:59:02 <AlexPassant> ... so probably good
... so probably good ←
15:59:16 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: reviewing should be eary
Axel Polleres: reviewing should be eary ←
16:00:06 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:00:36 <SteveH> bye
Steve Harris: bye ←
16:00:38 <AlexPassant> bye
bye ←
16:00:39 <MattPerry> bye
Matthew Perry: bye ←
16:00:39 <Zakim> -chimezie
Zakim IRC Bot: -chimezie ←
16:00:39 <Zakim> -cbuilara
Zakim IRC Bot: -cbuilara ←
16:00:40 <bglimm> bye
Birte Glimm: bye ←
16:00:41 <cbuilara> bye
Carlos Buil Aranda: bye ←
16:00:42 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:00:43 <NicoM> bye
Nico Michaelis: bye ←
16:00:44 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:00:45 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
16:00:46 <Zakim> -MattPerry
Zakim IRC Bot: -MattPerry ←
16:00:47 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
16:00:50 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:01:05 <AlexPassant> rrsagent, create minutes
rrsagent, create minutes ←
16:01:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-sparql-minutes.html AlexPassant
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-sparql-minutes.html AlexPassant ←
16:01:31 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant ←
16:02:20 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
Axel Polleres: rrsagent, make records public ←
16:03:15 <SteveH> AndyS, where did you get application/ from? I don't see it anywhere in docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml
Steve Harris: AndyS, where did you get application/ from? I don't see it anywhere in docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml ←
16:03:23 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: can you remind me how I move the minutes to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Chatlog_2011-01-11 ?
Axel Polleres: can you remind me how I move the minutes to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Chatlog_2011-01-11 ? ←
16:03:29 <AxelPolleres> summary: as for reviews, all reviews should cover substantive issues, structure, and editorial issues
16:03:51 <AxelPolleres> Zakim , make records public
Axel Polleres: Zakim , make records public ←
16:04:12 <AxelPolleres> Alex, go to http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/
Axel Polleres: Alex, go to http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/ ←
16:04:28 <AndyS> Ah - it's application/ in the results doc.
Andy Seaborne: Ah - it's application/ in the results doc. ←
16:04:31 <SteveH> AndyS, ah, it's in http-rdf-update
Steve Harris: AndyS, ah, it's in http-rdf-update ←
16:04:34 <AxelPolleres> ... control panel ... all quite self-explanatory
Axel Polleres: ... control panel ... all quite self-explanatory ←
16:04:42 <AxelPolleres> ... HTH
Axel Polleres: ... HTH ←
16:04:46 <AndyS> I don't mind much but I understood that text/ was hard to register.
Andy Seaborne: I don't mind much but I understood that text/ was hard to register. ←
16:05:00 <AxelPolleres> alex, ping me if trouble thanks for scribing
Axel Polleres: alex, ping me if trouble thanks for scribing ←
16:05:00 <SteveH> could be, not really my area
Steve Harris: could be, not really my area ←
16:05:03 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres ←
16:05:15 <SteveH> but I was under the impression that text/ should be used for anything human readable
Steve Harris: but I was under the impression that text/ should be used for anything human readable ←
16:05:19 <SteveH> will mail the list
Steve Harris: will mail the list ←
16:05:43 <Zakim> -NicoM
Zakim IRC Bot: -NicoM ←
16:05:44 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended ←
16:05:46 <Zakim> Attendees were bglimm, SteveH, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, kasei, +49.911.973.4.aaaa, NicoM, LeeF, +1.603.897.aabb, MattPerry, Sandro, chimezie, AlexPassant, NickH, Phil
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were bglimm, SteveH, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, kasei, +49.911.973.4.aaaa, NicoM, LeeF, +1.603.897.aabb, MattPerry, Sandro, chimezie, AlexPassant, NickH, Phil ←
16:06:00 <AndyS> Minor - point of ref: It's "application/json" (formally)
Andy Seaborne: Minor - point of ref: It's "application/json" (formally) ←
16:06:08 <SteveH> AndyS, hm, it's application/sparql-results+xml, which would be correct
Steve Harris: AndyS, hm, it's application/sparql-results+xml, which would be correct ←
16:06:11 <kasei> doesn't text/ come with a close tie to being ascii? i didn't think text/ media types could default to utf encodings.
Gregory Williams: doesn't text/ come with a close tie to being ascii? i didn't think text/ media types could default to utf encodings. ←
16:06:24 <SteveH> text/turtle does
Steve Harris: text/turtle does ←
16:06:27 <AndyS> kasei, good point
Andy Seaborne: kasei, good point ←
16:06:33 <AndyS> text/turtle is not registered.
Andy Seaborne: text/turtle is not registered. ←
16:06:35 <kasei> i didn't think text/turtle was official
Gregory Williams: i didn't think text/turtle was official ←
16:06:39 <SteveH> not yet, no
Steve Harris: not yet, no ←
16:07:30 <AndyS> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/
Andy Seaborne: http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/ ←
16:07:36 <SteveH> it's application/x-turtle, pending registration
Steve Harris: it's application/x-turtle, pending registration ←
16:07:57 <AndyS> That is nowadyas bad style. Hard to switch to non x- form.
Andy Seaborne: That is nowadyas bad style. Hard to switch to non x- form. ←
Formatted by CommonScribe