15:03:11 <manu> scribenick: manu
(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)
15:03:11 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Nov/0001.html
15:05:48 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
15:05:54 <manu> guest: Ted (MacTed) Thibodeau, OpenLink Software
15:05:54 <manu> manu: Any additions or changes to the Agenda?
Manu Sporny: Any additions or changes to the Agenda? ←
15:05:54 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
15:05:56 <manu> ack niklasl
ack niklasl ←
15:06:01 <niklasl> Add new test 0312 for @property muting plain @rel: https://github.com/rdfa/rdfa-website/commit/4c4df7c8a0
Niklas Lindström: Add new test 0312 for @property muting plain @rel: https://github.com/rdfa/rdfa-website/commit/4c4df7c8a0 ←
15:06:45 <manu> niklasl: I added this test, text isn't in Section 3.1 isn't in there yet.
Niklas Lindström: I added this test, text isn't in Section 3.1 isn't in there yet. ←
15:06:52 <manu> manu: Yep, I'll add it when we handle all the issues.
Manu Sporny: Yep, I'll add it when we handle all the issues. ←
15:06:53 <manu> ack gkellogg
ack gkellogg ←
15:07:24 <manu> gkellogg: Regarding the the use of prefixes being too sophisticated, it's on the Agenda?
Gregg Kellogg: Regarding the the use of prefixes being too sophisticated, it's on the Agenda? ←
15:07:25 <manu> manu: Yep.
Manu Sporny: Yep. ←
15:07:38 <manu> Topic: Announcements/Concerns/State of RDFa
15:07:45 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
15:07:57 <manu> ack gkellogg
ack gkellogg ←
15:08:08 <manu> manu: Any updates on Implementations, tools, growth or stagnation?
Manu Sporny: Any updates on Implementations, tools, growth or stagnation? ←
15:08:19 <scor> https://github.com/njh/easyrdf/tree/rdfa
Stéphane Corlosquet: https://github.com/njh/easyrdf/tree/rdfa ←
15:08:27 <manu> gkellogg: Nick Humphrey is making good progress on EasyRDF implementation of RDFa. It's a PHP implementation of RDFa.
Gregg Kellogg: Nick Humphrey is making good progress on EasyRDF implementation of RDFa. It's a PHP implementation of RDFa. ←
15:08:32 <gkellogg> https://github.com/njh/easyrdf/tree/rdfa
Gregg Kellogg: https://github.com/njh/easyrdf/tree/rdfa ←
15:08:40 <manu> gkellogg: He's passing around 2/3rds of tests at this point... 86%
Gregg Kellogg: He's passing around 2/3rds of tests at this point... 86% ←
15:08:51 <manu> gkellogg: He's been doing this less than a week, so this is great.
Gregg Kellogg: He's been doing this less than a week, so this is great. ←
15:09:01 <manu> scor: We've been missing a good RDFa library for PHP, so this is great news.
Stéphane Corlosquet: We've been missing a good RDFa library for PHP, so this is great news. ←
15:09:08 <manu> ivan: Any blog post on this yet?
Ivan Herman: Any blog post on this yet? ←
15:09:21 <manu> gkellogg: Just tweets for now.
Gregg Kellogg: Just tweets for now. ←
15:09:24 <gkellogg> https://twitter.com/njh/status/264883295974739970
Gregg Kellogg: https://twitter.com/njh/status/264883295974739970 ←
15:10:13 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:11:09 <manu> Manu: We need to be doing a better job on the rdfa.info website - getting schema.org examples on rdfa.info.
Manu Sporny: We need to be doing a better job on the rdfa.info website - getting schema.org examples on rdfa.info. ←
15:11:18 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
15:11:23 <manu> scor: They're in mercurial at W3C.
Stéphane Corlosquet: They're in mercurial at W3C. ←
15:11:24 <manu> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
15:11:36 <scor> e.g http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/raw-file/tip/schema.org/drafts/examples/site/testcases/rdfa/sdo_eg_rdfa_1.html
Stéphane Corlosquet: e.g http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/raw-file/tip/schema.org/drafts/examples/site/testcases/rdfa/sdo_eg_rdfa_1.html ←
15:11:49 <manu> ivan: It's easy for me to say this because somebody else will have to do it - why don't we put those examples on the Web Platform site?
Ivan Herman: It's easy for me to say this because somebody else will have to do it - why don't we put those examples on the Web Platform site? ←
15:12:01 <niklasl> .. at http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Main_Page
Niklas Lindström: .. at http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Main_Page ←
15:12:05 <manu> ivan: We should put this stuff on webplatform.org
Ivan Herman: We should put this stuff on webplatform.org ←
15:12:40 <manu> ivan: I think it would be bigger visibility there... we can put them up on both sites.
Ivan Herman: I think it would be bigger visibility there... we can put them up on both sites. ←
15:12:47 <manu> ack niklasl
ack niklasl ←
15:12:52 <manu> q+ to ask for volunteers.
q+ to ask for volunteers. ←
15:13:25 <niklasl> .. add to the minutes that pyRDFa is merged to RDFLib main
Niklas Lindström: .. add to the minutes that pyRDFa is merged to RDFLib main ←
15:14:21 <ShaneM> I am buried
Shane McCarron: I am buried ←
15:15:06 <manu> manu: Any volunteers?
Manu Sporny: Any volunteers? ←
15:15:14 <manu> No volunteers, everybody is swamped.
No volunteers, everybody is swamped. ←
15:17:04 <manu> scor: We should update the wikipedia page.
Stéphane Corlosquet: We should update the wikipedia page. ←
15:18:03 <manu> ACTION: Stephane to update the wikipedia page for RDFa
ACTION: Stephane to update the wikipedia page for RDFa ←
15:18:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Stephane. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/users>.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find Stephane. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/users>. ←
15:19:11 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-126: Can use of xmlns: be reported as an error for HTML5+RDFa 1.1?
15:19:20 <manu> ivan: I had a small discussion with Mike Smith about this issue.
Ivan Herman: I had a small discussion with Mike Smith about this issue. ←
15:19:50 <manu> ivan: We had said last time that use of xmlns: needs to say it's an error in the HTML5 spec.
Ivan Herman: We had said last time that use of xmlns: needs to say it's an error in the HTML5 spec. ←
15:20:09 <manu> ivan: The answer is that, in general, in HTML5 - any attribute usage that is not defined in the HTML5 standard is an error.
Ivan Herman: The answer is that, in general, in HTML5 - any attribute usage that is not defined in the HTML5 standard is an error. ←
15:20:34 <manu> ivan: This will raise an error in the validator. In HTML5, xmlns: has no meaning, it's just a normal attribute (that is unknown)
Ivan Herman: This will raise an error in the validator. In HTML5, xmlns: has no meaning, it's just a normal attribute (that is unknown) ←
15:20:34 <Steven> Are you sure it's an error?
Steven Pemberton: Are you sure it's an error? ←
15:20:42 <Steven> I thought at best it could be a warning
Steven Pemberton: I thought at best it could be a warning ←
15:20:53 <manu> Steven - I've got some spec text that I'll point to after Ivan speaks.
Steven - I've got some spec text that I'll point to after Ivan speaks. ←
15:20:59 <Steven> HTML5 says an unknown attribute is left in the DOM
Steven Pemberton: HTML5 says an unknown attribute is left in the DOM ←
15:21:02 <manu> ivan: I think we should accept that validators should raise an error, and move on.
Ivan Herman: I think we should accept that validators should raise an error, and move on. ←
15:21:27 <manu> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#attributes-0
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#attributes-0 ←
15:22:20 <manu> "No other namespaced attribute can be expressed in the HTML syntax."
"No other namespaced attribute can be expressed in the HTML syntax." ←
15:22:30 <manu> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#attributes
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#attributes ←
15:23:29 <manu> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#extensibility
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#extensibility ←
15:24:07 <manu> manu: Those links demonstrate that foo="blah" is an error. Since xmlns:foo="blah" is viewed the same in HTML5+RDFa, a conformance checker should report that as an error as well.
Manu Sporny: Those links demonstrate that foo="blah" is an error. Since xmlns:foo="blah" is viewed the same in HTML5+RDFa, a conformance checker should report that as an error as well. ←
15:25:28 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
15:25:28 <Steven> may
Steven Pemberton: may ←
15:25:41 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
15:25:41 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask for volunteers.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to ask for volunteers. ←
15:25:57 <Steven> q+
Steven Pemberton: q+ ←
15:26:17 <manu> ivan: What Mike asked for is that a conformance checker MUST express an error, right?
Ivan Herman: What Mike asked for is that a conformance checker MUST express an error, right? ←
15:26:41 <manu> gkellogg: My concern with putting MUST in the RDFa spec is that it might not be possible for some implementations to do that, so I'd prefer not to say "MUST"... I'd prefer SHOULD.
Gregg Kellogg: My concern with putting MUST in the RDFa spec is that it might not be possible for some implementations to do that, so I'd prefer not to say "MUST"... I'd prefer SHOULD. ←
15:27:03 <manu> ivan: Mike asked for MUST.
Ivan Herman: Mike asked for MUST. ←
15:27:15 <manu> ack gkellogg
ack gkellogg ←
15:27:32 <manu> Steven: The reason Mike asked for this is that they couldn't fix their validator.
Steven Pemberton: The reason Mike asked for this is that they couldn't fix their validator. ←
15:27:47 <manu> Steven: The question was whether they could fix their validator whether they could allow it in our case.
Steven Pemberton: The question was whether they could fix their validator whether they could allow it in our case. ←
15:28:04 <manu> Steven: All they wanted was for them to be able to raise it as an error.
Steven Pemberton: All they wanted was for them to be able to raise it as an error. ←
15:29:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:29:03 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:29:22 <manu> MacTed: Should allows for them to have a justification... MAY makes it way to lax.
Ted Thibodeau: Should allows for them to have a justification... MAY makes it way to lax. ←
15:29:55 <ShaneM> I agree with Steven on this one.
Shane McCarron: I agree with Steven on this one. ←
15:29:59 <ShaneM> May
Shane McCarron: May ←
15:30:02 <Steven> May
Steven Pemberton: May ←
15:30:24 <Steven> Just do what he asks for
Steven Pemberton: Just do what he asks for ←
15:30:33 <gkellogg> should +1, may +0.5
Gregg Kellogg: should +1, may +0.5 ←
15:30:35 <manu> What do folks want: MAY vs. SHOULD?
What do folks want: MAY vs. SHOULD? ←
15:30:44 <ShaneM> MAY
Shane McCarron: MAY ←
15:30:46 <manu> should +0.5, may +1
should +0.5, may +1 ←
15:30:49 <ivan> same as Gregg (surprise surprise)
Ivan Herman: same as Gregg (surprise surprise) ←
15:30:52 <MacTed> SHOULD +1, MAY +0
Ted Thibodeau: SHOULD +1, MAY +0 ←
15:30:54 <niklasl> should +1, may +1 (I don't care)
Niklas Lindström: should +1, may +1 (I don't care) ←
15:31:05 <scor> MAY
Stéphane Corlosquet: MAY ←
15:31:30 <manu> PROPOSAL: Change the conformance checker section to read "Conformance checkers MAY report the use of xmlns: as an error".
PROPOSED: Change the conformance checker section to read "Conformance checkers MAY report the use of xmlns: as an error". ←
15:31:32 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:31:34 <manu> manu: +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
15:31:35 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:31:36 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
15:31:39 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
15:31:58 <MacTed> +0
Ted Thibodeau: +0 ←
15:32:00 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
15:32:10 <scor> +1
Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 ←
15:32:11 <manu> RESOLVED: Change the conformance checker section to read "Conformance checkers MAY report the use of xmlns: as an error".
RESOLVED: Change the conformance checker section to read "Conformance checkers MAY report the use of xmlns: as an error". ←
15:33:03 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-143: Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology
15:33:09 <ivan> issue-143?
15:33:09 <trackbot> ISSUE-143 -- Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-143 -- Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology -- open ←
15:33:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/143
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/143 ←
15:34:09 <Steven> I think this is too late
Steven Pemberton: I think this is too late ←
15:34:21 <manu> manu: Tab is requesting that we re-visit the prefix indirection mechanism for RDFa. He is making a slightly different request than what has been made in the past. In the past, we've been asked to drop the prefix-indirection mechanism entirely. He has proposed an alternative proposal now that seems workable /IF/ the data shows that authors and implementations are generating the errors that he says they are. In short, he has two proposals: The first is to drop prefix indirection entirely, the second is to now allow prefixes that are defined in the RDFa Initial Context to be overridden using the prefix-indirection mechanism.
Manu Sporny: Tab is requesting that we re-visit the prefix indirection mechanism for RDFa. He is making a slightly different request than what has been made in the past. In the past, we've been asked to drop the prefix-indirection mechanism entirely. He has proposed an alternative proposal now that seems workable /IF/ the data shows that authors and implementations are generating the errors that he says they are. In short, he has two proposals: The first is to drop prefix indirection entirely, the second is to now allow prefixes that are defined in the RDFa Initial Context to be overridden using the prefix-indirection mechanism. ←
15:36:06 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:36:09 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
15:36:16 <Steven> q-
Steven Pemberton: q- ←
15:36:32 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss prefix mappings
Shane McCarron: q+ to discuss prefix mappings ←
15:36:43 <manu> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
15:37:07 <manu> ivan: My initial reaction to this is that I'd be very uneasy to say that anything in the initial context cannot be overridden. I think the RDFa processor should issue a warning.
Ivan Herman: My initial reaction to this is that I'd be very uneasy to say that anything in the initial context cannot be overridden. I think the RDFa processor should issue a warning. ←
15:37:29 <manu> ivan: Issue a warning when people deviate from what's in the initial context. I know this is less than what he asked for, but we should try to address as many of his concerns as possible.
Ivan Herman: Issue a warning when people deviate from what's in the initial context. I know this is less than what he asked for, but we should try to address as many of his concerns as possible. ←
15:37:32 <manu> ack gkellogg
ack gkellogg ←
15:38:28 <manu> gkellogg: I was going to agree with Ivan - we can't disallow it because of dublin core - some folks are going to want it to point back to elements. Reporting a warning through the processor graph addresses the concern. It's pretty much equivalent to disallowing it. You could merge the two graphs and construct a query that tells a consumer that a constraint they depend upon is violated.
Gregg Kellogg: I was going to agree with Ivan - we can't disallow it because of dublin core - some folks are going to want it to point back to elements. Reporting a warning through the processor graph addresses the concern. It's pretty much equivalent to disallowing it. You could merge the two graphs and construct a query that tells a consumer that a constraint they depend upon is violated. ←
15:38:38 <manu> gkellogg: That is just as good as not outputting the document at all.
Gregg Kellogg: That is just as good as not outputting the document at all. ←
15:38:40 <manu> ack ShaneM
ack ShaneM ←
15:38:40 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss prefix mappings
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss prefix mappings ←
15:40:00 <scor> http://ogp.me/
Stéphane Corlosquet: http://ogp.me/ ←
15:40:24 <manu> ShaneM: You said if this guy has any data and if he brings it up that he should let us know. We may have an existence proof with ogp - they don't notice if you remap the 'ogp' prefix.
Shane McCarron: You said if this guy has any data and if he brings it up that he should let us know. We may have an existence proof with ogp - they don't notice if you remap the 'ogp' prefix. ←
15:40:24 <manu> manu: Yes, but that one implementer does it for one prefix is very different from it being a wide-spread problem... plus, Facebook tells authors to declare the prefix in their documentation, so they're not telling their authors to not declare the prefix.
Manu Sporny: Yes, but that one implementer does it for one prefix is very different from it being a wide-spread problem... plus, Facebook tells authors to declare the prefix in their documentation, so they're not telling their authors to not declare the prefix. ←
15:40:47 <manu> gkellogg: I think if we add a warning, that that addresses that concern.
Gregg Kellogg: I think if we add a warning, that that addresses that concern. ←
15:40:49 <manu> manu: I disagree that it addresses his concern entirely... it may help a bit, but it doesn't get rid of it.
Manu Sporny: I disagree that it addresses his concern entirely... it may help a bit, but it doesn't get rid of it. ←
15:40:56 <scor> it's actually quite easy to write such a test and see what the OGP linter says
Stéphane Corlosquet: it's actually quite easy to write such a test and see what the OGP linter says ←
15:41:23 <scor> https://developers.facebook.com/tools/debug
Stéphane Corlosquet: https://developers.facebook.com/tools/debug ←
15:41:38 <scor> manu, I'll do the test after the call
Stéphane Corlosquet: manu, I'll do the test after the call ←
15:42:29 <manu> gkellogg: Can we resolve this with the provision that if new data comes in, we re-open the issue?
Gregg Kellogg: Can we resolve this with the provision that if new data comes in, we re-open the issue? ←
15:42:59 <manu> manu: Yes, we can do that.
Manu Sporny: Yes, we can do that. ←
15:42:51 <manu> ivan: Let's generate a warning and go back to him and see if he is happy with that.
Ivan Herman: Let's generate a warning and go back to him and see if he is happy with that. ←
15:43:11 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:43:11 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:43:29 <manu> manu: I don't think it will address his concern, but it is a positive step toward ensuring that people know when they override the initial context value that it might cause concerns.
Manu Sporny: I don't think it will address his concern, but it is a positive step toward ensuring that people know when they override the initial context value that it might cause concerns. ←
15:43:46 <manu> ivan: I don't think we should go as far as allowing the 'dc' value to be overridden.
Ivan Herman: I don't think we should go as far as allowing the 'dc' value to be overridden. ←
15:45:23 <manu> PROPOSAL: Remove the prefix-indirection mechanism from HTML5+RDFa 1.1.
PROPOSED: Remove the prefix-indirection mechanism from HTML5+RDFa 1.1. ←
15:45:26 <manu> -1
-1 ←
15:45:28 <ivan> -1
Ivan Herman: -1 ←
15:45:28 <gkellogg> -1
Gregg Kellogg: -1 ←
15:45:29 <niklasl> -1
Niklas Lindström: -1 ←
15:45:30 <Steven> -1
Steven Pemberton: -1 ←
15:45:37 <ShaneM> -1
Shane McCarron: -1 ←
15:46:02 <MacTed> -0
Ted Thibodeau: -0 ←
15:47:02 <manu> PROPOSAL: Keep the prefix-indirection mechanism in HTML5+RDFa 1.1.
PROPOSED: Keep the prefix-indirection mechanism in HTML5+RDFa 1.1. ←
15:47:04 <manu> manu: +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
15:47:05 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:47:05 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
15:47:06 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:47:08 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
15:47:10 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
15:47:18 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:47:19 <manu> RESOLVED: Keep the prefix-indirection mechanism in HTML5+RDFa 1.1.
RESOLVED: Keep the prefix-indirection mechanism in HTML5+RDFa 1.1. ←
15:47:50 <manu> PROPOSAL: Disallow prefixes specified in the RDFa initial context from being overridden in HTML5+RDFa 1.1.
PROPOSED: Disallow prefixes specified in the RDFa initial context from being overridden in HTML5+RDFa 1.1. ←
15:47:55 <Steven> -1
Steven Pemberton: -1 ←
15:47:56 <manu> -1
-1 ←
15:47:56 <gkellogg> -1
Gregg Kellogg: -1 ←
15:47:57 <ivan> -1
Ivan Herman: -1 ←
15:47:58 <niklasl> -1
Niklas Lindström: -1 ←
15:48:14 <ShaneM> -1
Shane McCarron: -1 ←
15:48:42 <manu> PROPOSAL: Allow prefixes specified in the RDFa initial context to be overridden using the prefix-indirection mechanism HTML5+RDFa 1.1.
PROPOSED: Allow prefixes specified in the RDFa initial context to be overridden using the prefix-indirection mechanism HTML5+RDFa 1.1. ←
15:48:44 <manu> manu: +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
15:48:44 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
15:48:45 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:48:45 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
15:48:47 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:48:48 <manu> +1 (from scor, on the phone)
+1 (from scor, on the phone) ←
15:48:48 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
15:49:17 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:49:21 <manu> RESOLVED: Allow prefixes specified in the RDFa initial context to be overridden using the prefix-indirection mechanism HTML5+RDFa 1.1.
RESOLVED: Allow prefixes specified in the RDFa initial context to be overridden using the prefix-indirection mechanism HTML5+RDFa 1.1. ←
15:50:49 <manu> PROPOSAL: Generate a warning in the processor graph when a prefix declared in the RDFa initial context is overridden with an IRI that is different from the IRI specified in the RDFa Initial Context.
PROPOSED: Generate a warning in the processor graph when a prefix declared in the RDFa initial context is overridden with an IRI that is different from the IRI specified in the RDFa Initial Context. ←
15:50:51 <manu> manu: +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
15:50:53 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:50:54 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:50:56 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
15:50:59 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
15:51:00 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
15:51:01 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:51:03 <manu> +1 (from scor, on the phone)
+1 (from scor, on the phone) ←
15:51:14 <manu> RESOLVED: Generate a warning in the processor graph when a prefix declared in the RDFa initial context is overridden with an IRI that is different from the IRI specified in the RDFa Initial Context.
RESOLVED: Generate a warning in the processor graph when a prefix declared in the RDFa initial context is overridden with an IRI that is different from the IRI specified in the RDFa Initial Context. ←
15:51:19 <Steven> A warning MAY be generated?
Steven Pemberton: A warning MAY be generated? ←
15:51:27 <Steven> or SHOULD? or MUST?
Steven Pemberton: or SHOULD? or MUST? ←
15:51:36 <Zakim> -scor
Zakim IRC Bot: -scor ←
15:52:03 <ShaneM> warnings are already all optional - as is the graph itself.
Shane McCarron: warnings are already all optional - as is the graph itself. ←
15:52:05 <manu> ivan: We need to add a new entry to the rdfa vocabulary for this.
Ivan Herman: We need to add a new entry to the rdfa vocabulary for this. ←
15:52:46 <manu> manu: Generating a warning should be a 'SHOULD'
Manu Sporny: Generating a warning should be a 'SHOULD' ←
15:53:02 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-144: Add an @itemref-like attribute to RDFa
15:53:02 <ivan> issue-144?
15:53:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-144 -- Add an @itemref-like attribute to RDFa -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-144 -- Add an @itemref-like attribute to RDFa -- open ←
15:53:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/144
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/144 ←
15:53:36 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
15:53:39 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
15:53:43 <manu> manu: Martin Hepp has requested that we reconsider the addition of an @itemref-like attribute for RDFa. He says that @itemref is very helpful when it comes to repetitive data, which is an issue in Good Relations.
Manu Sporny: Martin Hepp has requested that we reconsider the addition of an @itemref-like attribute for RDFa. He says that @itemref is very helpful when it comes to repetitive data, which is an issue in Good Relations. ←
15:54:04 <manu> gkellogg: I know we visited this in the past - we elected not to do it for a variety of reasons. I think it would have been good to have Martin's input at the time.
Gregg Kellogg: I know we visited this in the past - we elected not to do it for a variety of reasons. I think it would have been good to have Martin's input at the time. ←
15:54:11 <Steven> I'd like to see an example of what he's talking about.
Steven Pemberton: I'd like to see an example of what he's talking about. ←
15:54:12 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:54:30 <ivan> ack gkellogg
Ivan Herman: ack gkellogg ←
15:54:58 <manu> gkellogg: There are a number of advantages to this - working with EARL again, lots of duplication there, some sort of @itemref-like mechanism would be good. Martin's use case has a page of products which have all common attributes, but differ on color.
Gregg Kellogg: There are a number of advantages to this - working with EARL again, lots of duplication there, some sort of @itemref-like mechanism would be good. Martin's use case has a page of products which have all common attributes, but differ on color. ←
15:55:17 <manu> gkellogg: I think it might be useful, but adding it to HTML5+RDFa is too large of a processing chunk to add as an addendum.
Gregg Kellogg: I think it might be useful, but adding it to HTML5+RDFa is too large of a processing chunk to add as an addendum. ←
15:55:22 <manu> ack niklasl
ack niklasl ←
15:55:29 <manu> niklasl: I agree with Gregg.
Niklas Lindström: I agree with Gregg. ←
15:56:19 <manu> niklasl: I think that we really need clear explanations for these usecases where @itemref is sorely needed. If you have lots of repetition for items, of course you'll want a @include for that, you can't rely on templating... but you really need to use templates if you're doing something like this. It makes it much easier to read.
Niklas Lindström: I think that we really need clear explanations for these usecases where @itemref is sorely needed. If you have lots of repetition for items, of course you'll want a @include for that, you can't rely on templating... but you really need to use templates if you're doing something like this. It makes it much easier to read. ←
15:57:05 <manu> niklasl: It might make a lot of sense that you should model the data in a better way - have a prototypical resource that can be pointed at. That should be very usable in the consumption of the data... this might be construed as an ad-hoc argument to do nothing. Maybe I'm biased.
Niklas Lindström: It might make a lot of sense that you should model the data in a better way - have a prototypical resource that can be pointed at. That should be very usable in the consumption of the data... this might be construed as an ad-hoc argument to do nothing. Maybe I'm biased. ←
15:57:36 <manu> niklasl: This is common in bibliographic information as well - all of this makes the data more usable... but the case in Good Relations seems to be that you have noisy data - their usage in the wild.
Niklas Lindström: This is common in bibliographic information as well - all of this makes the data more usable... but the case in Good Relations seems to be that you have noisy data - their usage in the wild. ←
15:57:48 <manu> niklasl: We need examples before we should explore this further.
Niklas Lindström: We need examples before we should explore this further. ←
15:57:50 <manu> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
15:58:31 <manu> ivan: One of the reasons why we didn't pursue this back when it came up was that, anecdotally, the feedback that we got was that this was one of the features of Microdata that was very rarely used. We need data to prove that this is a feature in Microdata that is widely used.
Ivan Herman: One of the reasons why we didn't pursue this back when it came up was that, anecdotally, the feedback that we got was that this was one of the features of Microdata that was very rarely used. We need data to prove that this is a feature in Microdata that is widely used. ←
15:58:36 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Nov/0003.html
Ivan Herman: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Nov/0003.html ←
15:58:42 <manu> ivan: That being said, I sent this mail a few days ago.
Ivan Herman: That being said, I sent this mail a few days ago. ←
15:59:30 <manu> ivan: I wondered if we do this, how we'd want to do this. I fully agree that touching the processing steps at this point with something like @itemref would be a recipe for disaster, we know it's complicated, adding a new feature leads to weeks of discussions and complex modifications to the processing rules.
Ivan Herman: I wondered if we do this, how we'd want to do this. I fully agree that touching the processing steps at this point with something like @itemref would be a recipe for disaster, we know it's complicated, adding a new feature leads to weeks of discussions and complex modifications to the processing rules. ←
15:59:49 <manu> ivan: We rely on RDFa Core, so adding this feature in HTML5+RDFa would be very difficult.
Ivan Herman: We rely on RDFa Core, so adding this feature in HTML5+RDFa would be very difficult. ←
16:00:20 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
16:00:30 <manu> ivan: However, adding a pre-processing step before the real processing that modifies the DOM tree would be possible. There may be a few cornercases, but if the cornercases exists, we shouldn't do anything. I think this could work, but I haven't implemented it.
Ivan Herman: However, adding a pre-processing step before the real processing that modifies the DOM tree would be possible. There may be a few cornercases, but if the cornercases exists, we shouldn't do anything. I think this could work, but I haven't implemented it. ←
16:00:40 <manu> q+ to say I can't implement the pre-processing step.
q+ to say I can't implement the pre-processing step. ←
16:00:49 <manu> ivan: This is as far as I can go with it.
Ivan Herman: This is as far as I can go with it. ←
16:00:51 <manu> ack niklasl
ack niklasl ←
16:01:19 <manu> niklasl: There is some merit to that, but I'm a bit wary of pre-processing because you shouldn't mutate input data in JavaScript.
Niklas Lindström: There is some merit to that, but I'm a bit wary of pre-processing because you shouldn't mutate input data in JavaScript. ←
16:01:20 <ShaneM> q+ to point out that dom tree manipulation doesnt really work in a sax processor
Shane McCarron: q+ to point out that dom tree manipulation doesnt really work in a sax processor ←
16:02:01 <manu> niklasl: I have a bit of a problem with modifying the DOM. We could discuss post-processing the triples as well.
Niklas Lindström: I have a bit of a problem with modifying the DOM. We could discuss post-processing the triples as well. ←
16:02:04 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
16:02:05 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to say I can't implement the pre-processing step.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to say I can't implement the pre-processing step. ←
16:02:22 <ShaneM> q-
Shane McCarron: q- ←
16:02:27 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
16:02:45 <niklasl> .. *or*.. one can use OWL and a full reasoner: https://gist.github.com/4039715 .. but.. well.. ;)
Niklas Lindström: .. *or*.. one can use OWL and a full reasoner: https://gist.github.com/4039715 .. but.. well.. ;) ←
16:03:47 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
16:04:11 <manu> manu: I don't really like this feature as a pre-processing step.
Manu Sporny: I don't really like this feature as a pre-processing step. ←
16:04:37 <manu> gkellogg: There is a possibility here using entailment - Maybe there are some OWL rules that would allow us to do this type of mix-in?
Gregg Kellogg: There is a possibility here using entailment - Maybe there are some OWL rules that would allow us to do this type of mix-in? ←
16:04:38 <niklasl> .. gregg: look at that gist
Niklas Lindström: .. gregg: look at that gist ←
16:04:47 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
16:06:14 <manu> niklasl: I think we need to chat with Google, Bing, Yahoo about this...
Niklas Lindström: I think we need to chat with Google, Bing, Yahoo about this... ←
16:06:21 <manu> q+ to end the telecon
q+ to end the telecon ←
16:06:51 <manu> ivan: We should not touch the processing steps at this point, I was just playing with this pre-processing idea... maybe we want to do post-processing.
Ivan Herman: We should not touch the processing steps at this point, I was just playing with this pre-processing idea... maybe we want to do post-processing. ←
16:07:02 <manu> ack gkellogg
ack gkellogg ←
16:07:05 <manu> ack niklasl
ack niklasl ←
16:07:21 <manu> niklasl: Dan hinted at the possibility of using modelling - maybe there will be a schema.org prototype property.
Niklas Lindström: Dan hinted at the possibility of using modelling - maybe there will be a schema.org prototype property. ←
16:07:56 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:07:59 <Zakim> -Shane_McCarron
Zakim IRC Bot: -Shane_McCarron ←
16:08:00 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
16:08:01 <Zakim> -??P29
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P29 ←
16:08:03 <Zakim> -niklasl
Zakim IRC Bot: -niklasl ←
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