None.
13:56:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-rdfa-irc ←
13:56:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:56:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
13:56:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes ←
13:56:19 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:56:19 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
13:57:32 <manu> Chair: Manu
13:57:59 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0028.html
13:57:59 <manu> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius
13:57:59 <manu> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet
13:57:59 <manu> Guest: Niklas (lindstream) Lindström
13:58:02 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
13:58:09 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
13:58:19 <gkellogg> zakim, P0 is gkellogg
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, P0 is gkellogg ←
13:58:19 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named 'P0' ←
13:58:38 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P0 is gkellogg
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, ??P0 is gkellogg ←
13:58:38 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
13:58:58 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:59:05 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
13:59:10 <manu> zakim, I am ??P5
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P5 ←
13:59:10 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
13:59:17 <Zakim> +bergie
Zakim IRC Bot: +bergie ←
14:00:03 <Zakim> +Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud ←
14:00:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
14:00:09 <Zakim> +scor
Zakim IRC Bot: +scor ←
14:00:14 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:00:15 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
14:00:34 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:00:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, ??P1, manu, bergie, Knud, MacTed, scor
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, ??P1, manu, bergie, Knud, MacTed, scor ←
14:00:54 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise? ←
14:00:55 <lindstream> zakim, ??P1 is me
Niklas Lindström: zakim, ??P1 is me ←
14:00:55 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +lindstream; got it ←
14:01:05 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gkellogg (16%), ??P1 (36%), Knud (49%), manu (100%), MacTed (24%)
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gkellogg (16%), ??P1 (36%), Knud (49%), manu (100%), MacTed (24%) ←
14:01:11 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:01:11 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
14:01:21 <Knud> zakim, mute me
Knud Möller: zakim, mute me ←
14:01:21 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted ←
14:01:41 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, mute me ←
14:01:41 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted ←
14:01:58 <Steven> zakim, code?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, code? ←
14:01:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven ←
14:02:46 <manu> Any updates/changes to the agenda?
Manu Sporny: Any updates/changes to the agenda? ←
14:02:46 <manu> Topic: Announcements and News
14:02:55 <Knud> I have a quick question: is there any RDFa parser for iOS?
Knud Möller: I have a quick question: is there any RDFa parser for iOS? ←
14:03:12 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:03:13 <Knud> or something along those lines?
Knud Möller: or something along those lines? ←
14:03:46 <Knud> I was thinking of writing one, then
Knud Möller: I was thinking of writing one, then ←
14:04:37 <manu> You could use: https://github.com/msporny/librdfa
Manu Sporny: You could use: https://github.com/msporny/librdfa ←
14:04:37 <Knud> Yeah, I know librdfa - but if I want to implement the RDFa API on top of it, I'd rather have my own RDFa parser implementation
Knud Möller: Yeah, I know librdfa - but if I want to implement the RDFa API on top of it, I'd rather have my own RDFa parser implementation ←
14:04:52 <Knud> I'm not promising anything. :)
Knud Möller: I'm not promising anything. :) ←
14:04:58 <MacTed> I haven't tested ... but ODE may already do, and should be portable from base Mac OS X if not...
Ted Thibodeau: I haven't tested ... but ODE may already do, and should be portable from base Mac OS X if not... ←
14:04:58 <Knud> just a toy project for me... I'll check out ODE
Knud Möller: just a toy project for me... I'll check out ODE ←
14:05:38 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)
14:06:06 <manu> http://80legs.com/
Manu Sporny: http://80legs.com/ ←
14:06:30 <MacTed> Knud - just tested... iOS Safari won't download/install extension, so not yet. I'll make sure that's put on our roadmap.
Ted Thibodeau: Knud - just tested... iOS Safari won't download/install extension, so not yet. I'll make sure that's put on our roadmap. ←
14:06:55 <Steven> Manu: We need better data to analyze RDFa usage in the wild. Google, Yahoo and the other search companies, while helpful, are difficult to get raw data from. 80legs.com could help us crawl the entire web and get raw usage data to analyze. We would, of course, make all of the raw data public.
Manu Sporny: We need better data to analyze RDFa usage in the wild. Google, Yahoo and the other search companies, while helpful, are difficult to get raw data from. 80legs.com could help us crawl the entire web and get raw usage data to analyze. We would, of course, make all of the raw data public. ←
14:07:32 <Steven> ... we are thinking of working with 80legs to get data about RDFa, Microdata, and Microformats usage
... we are thinking of working with 80legs to get data about RDFa, Microdata, and Microformats usage ←
14:07:59 <Steven> ... so that we can defend some of our positions, or otherwise find out that we have been wrong about some of our positions and fix the spec if necessary.
... so that we can defend some of our positions, or otherwise find out that we have been wrong about some of our positions and fix the spec if necessary. ←
14:08:17 <Steven> ... and as a basic input for the RDFa/Microdata task force so that they're making decisions based on real-world data and not what we /think/ Web developers are doing out in the wild.
... and as a basic input for the RDFa/Microdata task force so that they're making decisions based on real-world data and not what we /think/ Web developers are doing out in the wild. ←
14:09:10 <Steven> Manu: I've been talking to people that work at browser companies, trying to get feedback
Manu Sporny: I've been talking to people that work at browser companies, trying to get feedback ←
14:09:27 <Steven> ... about what changes they would like to see in RDFa to make them happy
... about what changes they would like to see in RDFa to make them happy ←
14:09:31 <Steven> ... they have been very willing to talk, which is a good sign
... they have been very willing to talk, which is a good sign ←
14:09:54 <Steven> ... so some recent bugs filed against RDFa are a result of those discussions
... so some recent bugs filed against RDFa are a result of those discussions ←
14:10:57 <Steven> Niklas: A lot don't know what they are going to do with the RDFa data yet, which leads to them not understanding why we have it in the first place.
Niklas Lindström: A lot don't know what they are going to do with the RDFa data yet, which leads to them not understanding why we have it in the first place. ←
14:11:12 <Steven> ... from my point of view, it's about publishing more data than we've got today
... from my point of view, it's about publishing more data than we've got today ←
14:11:37 <Steven> Niklas: And they don't know why we want the data there
Niklas Lindström: And they don't know why we want the data there ←
14:11:47 <Steven> Manu: Robert Nyman?
Manu Sporny: Robert Nyman? ←
14:11:55 <Steven> Niklas: Yes, Mozilla and Firefox guy
Niklas Lindström: Yes, Mozilla and Firefox guy ←
14:12:05 <Steven> Manu: Should we talk with them?
Manu Sporny: Should we talk with them? ←
14:12:27 <Steven> Niklas: I haven't spent a lot of time doing that yet, but I'm thinking of doing more
Niklas Lindström: I haven't spent a lot of time doing that yet, but I'm thinking of doing more ←
14:12:57 <Steven> Manu: They say that they don't need it, but at the same time they say they like Microdata - so there is some cognitive dissonance here.
Manu Sporny: They say that they don't need it, but at the same time they say they like Microdata - so there is some cognitive dissonance here. ←
14:13:26 <Steven> Niklas: They don't grok why we need the graphs of RDFa
Niklas Lindström: They don't grok why we need the graphs of RDFa ←
14:13:48 <Steven> Manu: They don't want to negatively impact browser performance for the benefit of, what they perceive to be, a small audience. We hope the audience will grow over time, but it would be a shame for the browsers to integrate some heavy stuff into the browser and then find out that RDFa is not successful. Cruft lasts a very long time in the browser world.
Manu Sporny: They don't want to negatively impact browser performance for the benefit of, what they perceive to be, a small audience. We hope the audience will grow over time, but it would be a shame for the browsers to integrate some heavy stuff into the browser and then find out that RDFa is not successful. Cruft lasts a very long time in the browser world. ←
14:15:00 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-96: Document not ready
14:15:07 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/96
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/96 ←
14:17:05 <Steven> Manu: Which direction should we go with this?
Manu Sporny: Which direction should we go with this? ←
14:17:08 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
14:17:08 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:17:09 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should no longer be muted ←
14:17:12 <bergie> +q
Henri Bergius: +q ←
14:17:33 <Steven> Greg: Doing a callback is my preference
Gregg Kellogg: Doing a callback is my preference ←
14:17:40 <manu> ack gkellogg
Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg ←
14:18:07 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:18:20 <manu> ack bergie
Manu Sporny: ack bergie ←
14:18:21 <Steven> Henri: CLient-side js people are familiar with event model, so I would bind to a ready event of some kind, or a similar event; don't bother with ready signals for a particular resource
Henri Bergius: Client-side js people are familiar with event model, so I would bind to a ready event of some kind, or a similar event; don't bother with ready signals for a particular resource ←
14:18:22 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, mute me ←
14:18:22 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted ←
14:18:29 <Steven> sNiklas: I prefer callback
Niklas Lindström: I prefer callback ←
14:18:33 <Steven> s/sN/
14:18:39 <Steven> s/iklas/Niklas/
14:19:12 <Steven> Manu: An RDFa doc can have miltiple profiles. Processing can be done ignoring a subtree for a profile that can't be fetched
Manu Sporny: An RDFa doc can have miltiple profiles. Processing can be done ignoring a subtree for a profile that can't be fetched ←
14:19:20 <Steven> ... just one event is difficult
... just one event is difficult ←
14:19:33 <Steven> s/CL/Cl/
14:19:50 <Steven> ... so how do we address one of 5 profiles not loading?
... so how do we address one of 5 profiles not loading?? ←
14:19:53 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:19:56 <Steven> s/ing/ing?/
14:19:59 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
14:21:09 <Steven> Niklas: We don't have to resolve the profiles immediately, we could delay resolution until we need to turn it into RDFa.
Niklas Lindström: We don't have to resolve the profiles immediately, we could delay resolution until we need to turn it into RDFa. ←
14:21:26 <Steven> Manu: So, what you're saying is that the only time the profile needs to be loaded is when we are trying to do something RDF-like with the data? We could just use the terms displayed in the page?
Manu Sporny: So, what you're saying is that the only time the profile needs to be loaded is when we are trying to do something RDF-like with the data?? We could just use the terms displayed in the page? ←
14:21:34 <Steven> s/data/data?/
14:21:34 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
14:21:41 <manu> ack gkellogg
Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg ←
14:21:48 <Steven> Greg: That comes down to a usage model
Gregg Kellogg: That comes down to a usage model ←
14:22:07 <Steven> ... if the app knows what it needs. But doesn't get round needing to know when you can process
... if the app knows what it needs. But doesn't get round needing to know when you can process ←
14:22:39 <Steven> ... we can't get away from needing that feedback. We need to dereference the profiles at some point.
... we can't get away from needing that feedback. We need to dereference the profiles at some point. ←
14:22:59 <Steven> Manu: So we could have a callback that gives a map of the profiles and whether they have loaded
Manu Sporny: So we could have a callback that gives a map of the profiles and whether they have loaded ←
14:23:08 <Steven> Gregg: That would do it
Gregg Kellogg: That would do it ←
14:23:33 <Steven> ... it's easier to have a second callback saying when all profiles have been loaded
... it's easier to have a second callback saying when all profiles have been loaded ←
14:23:35 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:23:48 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
14:23:54 <Steven> ... knowing about failures could be useful
... knowing about failures could be useful ←
14:24:04 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:24:51 <Steven> Manu: We could do the same with an event, it's about the parameter passed with event or callback
Manu Sporny: We could do the same with an event, it's about the parameter passed with event or callback ←
14:25:00 <tomayac> is it a good idea to decouple profile(s) loaded and document loaded events? wouldn't fine-grained error reporting be better? => e.g. profile x timeout
Thomas Steiner: is it a good idea to decouple profile(s) loaded and document loaded events? wouldn't fine-grained error reporting be better? => e.g. profile x timeout ←
14:25:07 <Steven> ... but one event/callback for each profile would require the developer to keep track of which ones loaded successfully and which ones didn't.
... but one event/callback for each profile would require the developer to keep track of which ones loaded successfully and which ones didn't. ←
14:25:15 <Steven> ... by the app writer
... by the app writer ←
14:25:23 <Steven> q+
q+ ←
14:25:28 <Steven> ack m
ack m ←
14:25:47 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:26:07 <manu> Steven: Sounds like you need an event to say they've all been done, and one error event if one of them fails.
Steven Pemberton: Sounds like you need an event to say they've all been done, and one error event if one of them fails. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:26:15 <Steven> ack me
ack me ←
14:26:21 <tomayac> so you'd have an event dataloaded or whatever with fine-grained success/failre states
Thomas Steiner: so you'd have an event dataloaded or whatever with fine-grained success/failure states ←
14:26:49 <tomayac> s/failre/failure/
14:27:25 <tomayac> then +1 for doing it the XForms way, Steven ;-)
Thomas Steiner: then +1 for doing it the XForms way, Steven ;-) ←
14:27:28 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:27:31 <Steven> Manu: Are we talking about the processor writer using these events in JavaScript, or the webdeveloper knowing that the RDFa data is ready? I think we want the latter.
Manu Sporny: Are we talking about the processor writer using these events in JavaScript, or the webdeveloper knowing that the RDFa data is ready? I think we want the latter. ←
14:27:37 <Steven> Niklas: The latter
Niklas Lindström: The latter ←
14:27:38 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
14:28:01 <Steven> ... I agree with an evet/callback saying everything is ready
... I agree with an evet/callback saying everything is ready ←
14:28:10 <Steven> ... progress reoprting is not so important
... progress reporting is not so important ←
14:28:17 <Steven> s/reop/repo/
14:28:41 <Steven> Manu: So maybe an event and a callback, event is RDFa-data-ready, the callback is an error callback
Manu Sporny: So maybe an event and a callback, event is RDFa-data-ready, the callback is an error callback ←
14:29:10 <Steven> ... does that cover it?
... does that cover it? ←
14:29:25 <Steven> [voice]: I think so
Niklas Lindström: I think so ←
14:29:39 <bergie> Sounds good
Henri Bergius: Sounds good ←
14:30:10 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:30:10 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should no longer be muted ←
14:30:26 <manu> s/[voice]/Niklas/
14:30:27 <Steven> Henri: Sounds good. Keep things simple.
Henri Bergius: Sounds good. Keep things simple. ←
14:30:43 <tomayac> document.ondataready(event)
Thomas Steiner: document.ondataready(event) ←
14:31:08 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, mute me ←
14:31:08 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted ←
14:31:14 <tomayac> similar to document.onload
Thomas Steiner: similar to document.onload ←
14:31:16 <Steven> ... try running VIE editing environment on top of RDFa API, would be a good test case
... try running VIE editing environment on top of RDFa API, would be a good test case ←
14:31:33 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:31:33 <Steven> Manu: Some like the microdata API because there is only one event
Manu Sporny: Some like the microdata API because there is only one call ←
14:31:38 <Steven> s/event/call/
14:31:40 <bergie> link to VIE for those who haven't seen it: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme
Henri Bergius: link to VIE for those who haven't seen it: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme ←
14:33:10 <Steven> Niklas: One remark, using profiles we don't need to use URIs, but the mapping is awkward for developers
Niklas Lindström: One remark, using profiles we don't need to use URIs, but the mapping is awkward for developers ←
14:34:51 <Steven> Manu: So maybe we need a "getraw" for the attribute as used in the page
Manu Sporny: So maybe we need a "getraw" for the attribute as used in the page ←
14:35:01 <Steven> zakim, agenda?
zakim, agenda? ←
14:35:01 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
Zakim IRC Bot: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: ←
14:35:02 <Zakim> 1. ISSUE-96: Document not ready [from Steven]
Zakim IRC Bot: 1. ISSUE-96: Document not ready [from Steven] ←
14:35:03 <Zakim> 2. Graph.toArray() list order [from Steven]
Zakim IRC Bot: 2. Graph.toArray() list order [from Steven] ←
14:35:05 <Zakim> 3. Live NodeLists and Graphs [from Steven]
Zakim IRC Bot: 3. Live NodeLists and Graphs from Steven] ←
14:35:36 <Steven> scor: So @profile is a new feature; why not have the default profile in the spec, and no other profile at all.
Stéphane Corlosquet: So @profile is a new feature; why not have the default profile in the spec, and no other profile at all. ←
14:35:52 <Steven> ... what is the real benefit of profiles?
... what is the real benefit of profiles? ←
14:36:16 <Steven> Manu: The one big use case is microformats
Manu Sporny: The one big use case is microformats ←
14:36:25 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
14:36:33 <Steven> ... the other is for people who don't like CURIES
... the other is for people who don't like CURIES ←
14:36:58 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
14:36:59 <Steven> scor: Well, they can define the vocab inline
Stéphane Corlosquet: Well, they can define the vocab inline ←
14:37:02 <manu> ack gkellogg
Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg ←
14:37:43 <Steven> Greg: Microformats work with a profile with an NCNAME
Gregg Kellogg: Microformats work with a profile with an NCNAME ←
14:37:57 <Steven> ... maybe we can provide those as standard
... maybe we can provide those as standard ←
14:38:03 <Steven> q+
q+ ←
14:38:30 <manu> ack Steven
Manu Sporny: ack Steven ←
14:38:43 <manu> Steven: The reason profiles are there are to provide an extension mechanism.
Steven Pemberton: The reason profiles are there are to provide an extension mechanism. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:39:00 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:39:09 <Steven> ack m
ack m ←
14:39:37 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:39:41 <Steven> Manu: Good discussion, revisiting some of these decisions. Stephane made a good point, that most of the profile use cases could be addressed with @vocab
Manu Sporny: Good discussion, revisiting some of these decisions. Stephane made a good point, that most of the profile use cases could be addressed with @vocab ←
14:40:16 <Steven> ... but vocabulary mixing wouldn't work
... but vocabulary mixing wouldn't work ←
14:40:32 <Steven> ... but you could just use prefixing
... but you could just use prefixing ←
14:40:44 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:41:28 <Steven> Niklas: I see the value in that. I thought of profiles as vocabs with mixing at a direct level. That use case might be small, and then you could use prefixes
Niklas Lindström: I see the value in that. I thought of profiles as vocabs with mixing at a direct level. That use case might be small, and then you could use prefixes ←
14:41:49 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
14:42:17 <Steven> Manu: So you suppotr removing @profile?
Manu Sporny: So you support removing @profile? ←
14:42:22 <Steven> s/potr/port/
14:42:38 <Steven> Niklas: Not sure. I like @profile
Niklas Lindström: Not sure. I like @profile ←
14:43:43 <Steven> Manu: People were wondering why we were using URLs to identify everything.
Manu Sporny: People were wondering why we were using URLs to identify everything. ←
14:44:09 <Steven> ... they suggested using a default profile, wioth registering prefixes at the profile
... they suggested using a default profile, with registering prefixes at the profile ←
14:44:21 <Steven> q+
q+ ←
14:44:28 <Steven> s/wio/wi
14:44:36 <Steven> ... a registery
... a registry ←
14:44:38 <bergie> q+
Henri Bergius: q+ ←
14:44:44 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:44:46 <Steven> s/registery/registry
14:44:57 <manu> ack Steven
Manu Sporny: ack Steven ←
14:45:40 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:45:40 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should no longer be muted ←
14:45:42 <manu> ack bergie
Manu Sporny: ack bergie ←
14:45:48 <Steven> Steven: The idea is to give freedom, not asking people to register. It's like asking people to register class names
Steven Pemberton: The idea is to give freedom, not asking people to register. It's like asking people to register class names ←
14:45:53 <Steven> Niklas: I second that
Henri Bergius: I second that ←
14:46:13 <Steven> ... people can use the ontology they feel like
... people can use the ontology they feel like ←
14:46:29 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
14:46:36 <Knud> could we have both: a registry _and_ a local prefixing mechanism?
Knud Möller: could we have both: a registry _and_ a local prefixing mechanism? ←
14:46:40 <Steven> ... I'm strongly against registering
... I'm strongly against registering ←
14:46:44 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
Henri Bergius: Zakim, mute me ←
14:46:44 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted ←
14:46:48 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
14:46:57 <Steven> s/Niklas/Henri/
14:47:04 <Steven> Niklas: I support Steven and Henri on this
Niklas Lindström: I support Steven and Henri on this ←
14:47:36 <MacTed> centralized registries are trouble
Ted Thibodeau: centralized registries are trouble ←
14:47:36 <Knud> a registry could help 80% of the big name use cases, the local prefixing could help the rest?
Knud Möller: a registry could help 80% of the big name use cases, the local prefixing could help the rest? ←
14:47:41 <manu> ack gkellogg
Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg ←
14:47:44 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
14:47:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:47:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
14:47:57 <Steven> Greg: @profile is a complication in an implementation
Gregg Kellogg: @profile is a complication in an implementation ←
14:48:06 <Steven> ... we should think about removing it
... we should think about removing it ←
14:48:20 <Steven> ... @prefix does address the use cases
... @prefix does address the use cases ←
14:48:30 <manu> ack MacTed
Manu Sporny: ack MacTed ←
14:48:57 <Steven> Ted: Centralised registries are always problematic. Doomed
Ted Thibodeau: Centralised registries are always problematic. Doomed ←
14:49:09 <Steven> ... RDFa is succesful because it is not centralised
... RDFa is successful because it is not centralised ←
14:49:15 <Steven> s/sf/ssf/
14:49:29 <Steven> q+
q+ ←
14:49:56 <Steven> ... eventually we should think about getting rid of prefixing
... eventually we should think about getting rid of prefixing ←
14:50:07 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
14:50:10 <Steven> Manu: Is that an argument for @profile
Manu Sporny: Is that an argument for @profile ←
14:50:13 <Steven> Ted: Not sure
Ted Thibodeau: Not sure ←
14:50:35 <Steven> Ted: Ultimate solution is doc to be fully expanded at delivery
Ted Thibodeau: Ultimate solution is doc to be fully expanded at delivery ←
14:50:50 <Steven> Steven: I disagree with that point of view
Steven Pemberton: I disagree with that point of view ←
14:51:22 <manu> ack Steven
Manu Sporny: ack Steven ←
14:52:09 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:52:26 <Steven> Ted: Shorthand gets in the way of knowing what the fully expanded form is
Ted Thibodeau: Shorthand gets in the way of knowing what the fully expanded form is ←
14:52:48 <Steven> Steven: I think that is anti-author
Steven Pemberton: I think that is anti-author ←
14:53:05 <Steven> ... writing the full form URIs would be awful
... writing the full form URIs would be awful ←
14:53:08 <manu> ack gkellogg
Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg ←
14:53:34 <Steven> Greg: Some of the copy-paste issues could be addressed at the top-level
Gregg Kellogg: Some of the copy-paste issues could be addressed at the top-level ←
14:53:35 <Steven> q+
q+ ←
14:53:37 <Steven> q-
q- ←
14:53:42 <Steven> q+ on copy paste
q+ on copy paste ←
14:54:06 <Steven> Greg: There is something to be said for things that are easy to read
Gregg Kellogg: There is something to be said for things that are easy to read ←
14:54:12 <Steven> ... full URIs are a nightmare
... full URIs are a nightmare ←
14:54:15 <lindstream> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
14:54:26 <Steven> ... CURIEs are elegant in comparison
... CURIEs are elegant in comparison ←
14:55:13 <Steven> Manu: I don't think Ted and Steven are saying different things; I think the transformation can happen at a different layer. Perhaps the author uses CURIEs to author, but the authoring software or the web server expands all CURIEs to full IRIs before they go out.
Manu Sporny: I don't think Ted and Steven are saying different things; I think the transformation can happen at a different layer. Perhaps the author uses CURIEs to author, but the authoring software or the web server expands all CURIEs to full IRIs before they go out. ←
14:55:33 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:55:50 <Steven> Ted: Where it happens is up to a lot of things
Ted Thibodeau: Where it happens is up to a lot of things ←
14:56:00 <Steven> ... you may not have control over the webserver
... you may not have control over the webserver ←
14:56:36 <Steven> ... there are multiple stages where these things matter
... there are multiple stages where these things matter ←
14:56:56 <Steven> ... who pays? The author, the end user, the programmer?
... who pays? The author, the end user, the programmer? ←
14:57:15 <Steven> ... The ugliness should be hidden from the enduser
... The ugliness should be hidden from the enduser ←
14:57:24 <manu> ack Steven
Manu Sporny: ack Steven ←
14:57:25 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to comment on copy paste
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you wanted to comment on copy paste ←
14:58:02 <manu> Steven: I've always thought that the copy-paste problem was a bit of a red herring - I've never had problems with it myself - people that copy/paste tend to work in the same areas
Steven Pemberton: I've always thought that the copy-paste problem was a bit of a red herring - I've never had problems with it myself - people that copy/paste tend to work in the same areas [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:58:12 <manu> Steven: if copy-paste is an issue, then authoring in general is an issue.
Steven Pemberton: if copy-paste is an issue, then authoring in general is an issue. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:58:25 <manu> Steven: I don't think it's a big issue.
Steven Pemberton: I don't think it's a big issue. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:58:27 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:58:36 <Zakim> -scor
Zakim IRC Bot: -scor ←
14:58:39 <Steven> Niklas: CURIES are one way to make things easier, @profile can help too
Niklas Lindström: CURIES are one way to make things easier, @profile can help too ←
14:59:33 <Steven> Manu: So profiles can be used to ease authoring and consumption by the browser?
Manu Sporny: So profiles can be used to ease authoring and consumption by the browser? ←
14:59:38 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:59:39 <Steven> Niklas: Possibly
Niklas Lindström: Possibly ←
14:59:44 <manu> ack lindstream
Manu Sporny: ack lindstream ←
15:00:05 <Steven> Manu: can someone raise these issues on the mailing list to get some feedback?
Manu Sporny: can someone raise these issues on the mailing list to get some feedback? ←
15:00:14 <Steven> ... such as proposing removing @profile
... such as proposing removing @profile ←
15:00:20 <MacTed> I have to jump to another call...
Ted Thibodeau: I have to jump to another call... ←
15:00:37 <Steven> ... restricting @prefix to toplevel
... restricting @prefix to toplevel ←
15:00:54 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
15:00:55 <Steven> ]Manu: removing prefixes no one likes, but perhaps it's worth raising
Manu Sporny: removing prefixes no one likes, but perhaps it's worth raising ←
15:01:05 <Steven> s/]//
15:01:11 <Steven> Greg: I'll do removing @profile
Gregg Kellogg: I'll do removing @profile ←
15:01:28 <Steven> Manu: I'll do restricting @prefix to head
Manu Sporny: I'll do restricting @prefix to head ←
15:01:41 <Steven> ... and removing prefix altogether
... and removing prefix altogether ←
15:01:44 <Steven> s/[//
15:02:20 <Steven> Topic: Any other business?
15:02:39 <Steven> Steven: Enquire using doodle about coming meetings?
Steven Pemberton: Enquire using doodle about coming meetings? ←
15:02:43 <Steven> Manu: I'll do that
Manu Sporny: I'll do that ←
15:02:45 <Steven> ADJOURN
ADJOURN ←
15:02:53 <bergie> bye
Henri Bergius: bye ←
15:03:20 <gkellogg> s/Greg/Gregg/
15:03:27 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
15:03:29 <Zakim> -manu
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←
15:03:31 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
15:03:36 <Zakim> -Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud ←
Formatted by CommonScribe